DAW software lags behind other creative software like 3D animation packages

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v1o wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:10 pm Most of the major DAWs have remained largely unchanged for the past ten years with no real innovation. I was reading up on the latest versions of Autodesk Maya and Blender. The amount of new features, functions and technological progress that has been made within just a couple of years is staggering. In terms of computer science these applications are really pushing bar of what is possible in software.

I know this might sound silly to some but when compared to the speed of innovation in the market for 3d animation software & renderers, music production software is in the stone age. DAWs for example have stuck rigidly to the piano roll metaphor when composing, whereas in the aforementioned there are dozens of different but equally valid methods to create (model or animate) content. They have also made huge progress in high quality procedurally generated content to speed up workflows. And almost everything is scriptable and customizable. Even freeware like Blender is a much more complex piece of software than Cubase or Logic; with an order of magnitude more tools, functions, macros, modules, settings, user customizable workflows etc etc. I'm also shocked that physics based interactions have not made their way into Audio yet - such as using real physics to model sound vibrations in different environments rather than the hacks commonly used in most delay based fx.
imo 3D graphic software is still in stone age. In modern DAW you can create professional sounding track in few hours even in minutes (depends on a genre). 3D software require A LOT of effort and time to get professional results.
Audio software doesn't change that much because we reached point when not much can be changed. We have tools which are based on decades of experience starting from the first multitrack recorder. It simply works. Of course there's space for experimental software/techniques but it doesn't change the fact that actual audio software is simply greatly usable as it is. Why piano roll is still here? Because it works and is efficient for the task.
3D graphic software? It's still very young tech there's a ton of space for improvement to speed up workflow and this is why there's a lot of innovation - because there's a lot to improve.
Your comparison based on complexity totally makes no sense and is illogical. Different tools for different tasks (not to mention that modern DAWs like Cubase are very complex and has already more tools than majority of musicians/prodocers need). I think that you never went deep into any of those DAWs and your opinion is based just on looking at the surface. You can't compare both. Actually it's not different than comparison of 3D software and MS Word.

Physics based models are still very fresh in audio (and very simple) because it require a lot of processing power. Audio in opposite to 3D graphics doesn't use accelerators because it's absolutely different architecture and different requirements for both audio and graphics. We will get there but for now real-time processing power of CPU's barely can handle big multitrack sessions. Some use server systems to just run their sessions in real-time. How many musicians/producers can afford that? Not many. Thus nobody is running to do R&D to release 3D physics based audio modelling in commercial market. Bah look at Acustica Audio. Their approach is kinda innovative yet still very 'simple' yet their effects can eat even newest CPUs like a candy.
If we get powerful audio accelerators like NVIDIA/AMD do for graphics then I'm sure that it would give a huge boost to experiments and R&D. But it will not happen. Music/audio is de-evaluated (more and more each year) while market for 3D graphics growing bigger and bigger. Just look at the demand differences for graphic designers and audio designers (not to mention salary gap) for film/video game companies. There's much more money in graphics than in audio. Thus less money being put into audio software/hardware.
[EDIT] for example in UE4 we're getting new tools which allow us to process 3D spatial audio, obstructions etc. based on 3D world physics. It's really cools stuff yet implementation of eg. reverberation there is very simple and far from high quality like reverbs that we can use in DAW (not to mention hardware). I've never been in such situation but I can imagine that many times when sound designers will want to use it, later someone will ask them to abandon this idea because... there's a need for those precious CPU cycles for graphics/code processing to keep good FPS. Oh well... once again audio is less important than graphics ;)

Ps. Maybe 3D software have 10000000000 tools and functions. But is it really a sign of superiority over audio software? Maybe it's actually opposite. There's so many tools and functions because it's still a long way to simplify/speed up an entire production process. More not always equals better.

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pixel85 wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:13 pm imo 3D graphic software is still in stone age. In modern DAW you can create professional sounding track in few hours even in minutes (depends on a genre). 3D software require A LOT of effort and time to get professional results.
yeah, but to be fair, if you had to design every instrument and effect from scratch at the lowest level of DSP, for every track, then you'd have a fairer comparison wrt timescales.

Do you not think that with a good library of prebuilt models, canned animations particle effects etc and a realtime engine (Unity or Unreal) an experienced 3D generalist could produce a suitably 'professional looking' video in a decently short period of time?

For reference, the video below. At the 32-minute mark, you can see what is basically half an hour's work...



No, its not ILM. But it isnt worse than Generic Youtube Cookiecutter FL Trance Track Number 3072, either.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."

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whyterabbyt wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:59 pm
pixel85 wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:13 pm imo 3D graphic software is still in stone age. In modern DAW you can create professional sounding track in few hours even in minutes (depends on a genre). 3D software require A LOT of effort and time to get professional results.
yeah, but to be fair, if you had to design every instrument and effect from scratch at the lowest level of DSP, for every track, then you'd have a fairer comparison wrt timescales.

Do you not think that with a good library of prebuilt models, canned animations particle effects etc and a realtime engine (Unity or Unreal) an experienced 3D generalist could produce a suitably 'professional looking' video in a decently short period of time?

For reference, the video below. At the 32-minute mark, you can see what is basically half an hour's work...



No, its not ILM. But it isnt worse than Generic Youtube Cookiecutter FL Trance Track Number 3072, either.
Yeah it's just putting pre-made 'blocks' on a timeline. Like you said, synth presets + pre-made midi sequence + loops from sample pack = generic trance track is done.

I was thinking more of comparison of eg. sfx sound design (synth programming, samples modification, layers, effects) to 3D modelling. Making both things from scratch.

Unity is much different type of software than proper 3D programs like Maya or Blender thus it's beyond the scope of my previous post. I was focused on 3D modelling not on video editing (with 3D models). But yeah it's a very wide topic and it's hard to put everything to one bag like it can go further to recording musicians and motion-capture (I have absolutely no idea about the latter tho) but it's far beyond only software :)

Also 2 decades with audio software vs barely 2 years with graphics (only as a necessary evil in a game development) definitely makes my opinion biased :wink:

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chk071 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:02 am
CasualHobbyist wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:27 pm @chk071 Seems the Japanese are at least hopping on that https://www.blender.org/user-stories/ja ... o-blender/ Then again, I suppose it does falls under the "exception that proves the rule"

In general: I always found Blender's GUI fine, then again, it may just be me or a few others (don't think I consider a pretty or "modern" GUI a "basic" anyway IMO). As for how it compares with DAWs, well...you're comparing music creation tools with different workflows and styles versus 3D graphics creation tools. There can't be comparisons here, the approach and style are too different to be compared.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's fantastic to have such a tool available for free. As a hobbyist, who wants to look into 3D modelling, i can't afford payware 3D modelling software, so, it's great to have Blender available. As i always read, for people who are more into those things, Blender is rather a jack of all trades, and does a little of everything, while it's not specialized, and feature rich in a specific area, which is the case with the usual suspect industry standard tools. And Blender's GUI is quite bad in comparison to other softwares, which is always something i notice, especially with open source freeware. Again, though, as a hobbyist, i'm happy it's there, and, i have no illusion that, once again, you get what you pay for.
TRy blender 2.8 , gui wise ( and lots of other stuff) it has surpassed many other packages
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Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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pixel85 wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:15 pm Unity is much different type of software than proper 3D programs like Maya or Blender thus it's beyond the scope of my previous post. I was focused on 3D modelling not on video editing (with 3D models).
Unity isnt a video editor, its a realtime visualisation engine. And while it is different from non-realtime tools, there are toolsets for it for modelling, animation, texture painting, rigging, particles, physics simulations etc etc; all the things you find in what you're calling a 'proper' 3D program.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."

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whyterabbyt wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:38 pm
pixel85 wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:15 pm Unity is much different type of software than proper 3D programs like Maya or Blender thus it's beyond the scope of my previous post. I was focused on 3D modelling not on video editing (with 3D models).
Unity isnt a video editor, its a realtime visualisation engine. And while it is different from non-realtime tools, there are toolsets for it for modelling, animation, texture painting, rigging, particles, physics simulations etc etc; all the things you find in what you're calling a 'proper' 3D program.
It's not even a real time visualisation engine :) It's game engine. I'm using it as I'm game dev :)

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pixel85 wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:22 pm It's not even a real time visualisation engine :) It's game engine. I'm using it as I'm game dev
It was originally a game engine. They've been aiming it at realtime visualisation for various industries and uses as well as games for several years now, and they stopped calling it a game engine several years ago. They call it a realtime development platform for 2D, 3D and VR.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."

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For me, the mot striking difference between 3D software and a DAW is the possibility of ever getting an adrenalin rush. :wink:

I watched the 3D video above and for me, it's like 3D software was many years ago; an endless need for dragging stuff just to make a silly figure take a footstep, and as I'm not a pro I couldn't make it looking good anyway.

...whereas in a DAW, just about anyone could make music - good or bad but still some sound that might satisfy the "composer".
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:15 pm Passing Bye wrote:
"look at SparkySpark's post 4 posts up, let that sink in for a moment"
Go MuLab!

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The main difference between music creation software and 3D software is that the latter is a technically more advanced discipline that requires forward thinking, a higher degree of technical skill, knowledge and imagination. It's often a far more tedious and slower process that provides really no satisfaction until what you have created is actually finished, but even then it's rare for any artist to be completely satisfied with the endeavour to create something better next time, an important part of the drive required, I'll have to add.

With music software today, you have an over abundance of ways to create music, although that in itself can pose problems, as your expectations that you have in your mind are higher. This puts pressure on you as it's a deeper emotional sense and state of mind that you may be in. In other words, you need a clear head to start with and able to enjoy what you are doing. With 3D software you don't as it's more of a sedentary time consuming tedious process.

I know for me and I suspect any other artist that produces music or 3D artwork that, you need a reason and purpose for doing it. When you are doing anything with 3D software though, this requires continual and dedicated time on a regular basis to really master and it never stops. The modelling process is really quite a therapeutic process, but really only when you get into it and what you are modelling has gone without mistakes, because I can tell you that if, you've never modelled anything before, that you will make many. It requires a lot of patience and precisional dexterity to model complex models and an understanding of the tools you have...and that's before you get into materials, texture design and understanding of lighting ect. Sure you could get a bunch of preset setups and assemble them all together, but that's really not satisfying, at least for me... and well you're not learning much.

By comparison with music, you have a way more free way to choose how in and in what way you are going to create sound and get an emotional reaction within one self to recognise what works and what doesn't in an instant.

The real magic is when these two mediums are fused together... In terms of software development, there is room to bring both aspects of 3D software and DAWs closer together, more than how they are at present. It's happened in the past and there's no reason why it won't become more of a thing in the future and that in which will make music software a more dynamic and creative platform.
Last edited by THE INTRANCER on Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Intrancer - well put! Great post really. :clap:

Could you expand a little on your thoughts on how to fuse them together? What are you missing from a traditional DAW?
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:15 pm Passing Bye wrote:
"look at SparkySpark's post 4 posts up, let that sink in for a moment"
Go MuLab!

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SparkySpark wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:46 pm Intrancer - well put! Great post really. :clap:

Could you expand a little on your thoughts on how to fuse them together? What are you missing from a traditional DAW?
The ability to not just look at a 2D representation of a waveform, but to actually go inside the waveform and manipulate the 3D form of it based upon the resolution- i.e number of dots it has, distance, the duration in which the sound travels from a set of dots to another set of dots which forms a 3D representational shape of the 3D object. Colour of the 3D object i.e the frequency level of the object, transparency i.e the level in which the sound is able to merge with the next 3D object. Reflectivity i.e the level of bouncing of sound within the 3D object. Luminance - i.e the loudness level of the 3D object, be that internal or external to that of the mix level of other 3D objects. Specular i.e the glistening effects associated with the frequency levels. Fogging, the level of resistance or speed in which sound is able to pass through which influences the shape in which the object has. The type of object be that a sphere, rectangular triangle / rectangular square, torus ect determines the environmental aspects in which the sound will pass through... And just like in a 3D program, you would have a 3D viewport representation of this. Then we could move onto lights so only certain parts of the object are lit which affects only certain areas of the 3D sound objects.. Move on manipulators so the these objects can be, synced rotated and animated... and it opens a whole new world of creative DAWs... and that's just the waveform representation idea I have... The Midi side is something else... :)
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I'm starting to think that if Pink Floyd had formed in 2010 that they'd never have released a single album. They would have sat around imagining tools that could have done things in some vaguely more glamorous or efficient way, while never recording a thing.

Either that, or they'd have recorded twice as much music, which would all have been completely ignored by a world with an increasingly short attention span.

Of course, I may be being unnecessarily cynical....

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herodotus wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:54 am I'm starting to think that if Pink Floyd had formed in 2010 that they'd never have released a single album. They would have sat around imagining tools that could have done things in some vaguely more glamorous or efficient way, while never recording a thing.

Either that, or they'd have recorded twice as much music, which would all have been completely ignored by a world with an increasingly short attention span.

Of course, I may be being unnecessarily cynical....
:lol:
Well said :tu:

All this bizarre 3d / audio tech comparison is so pointless..
Its over for Bitwig--CUBASE WON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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If you're gonna be innovative, you need to think outside the box as the saying goes... now, I'm going to sleep on it.. :P
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Humans are cosmically seen as blind and deaf as a rock.
So yeah, then you'll get threads like these. Once painters were famous, now it's the canvas. There was not really a reason why painters were so famous back then as there is no reason at all, fame simply is meant to rule the blind. Thank you.

I never understood art anyhow. As a small kid I once went to the Rijksmuseum and wasn't very impressed; there was hardly anything to see. For decades smoke of cigars and cigarettes had covered the original paintings. The color brown comes to mind, only if I try to remember.

The painting are clean now, but that's another story.

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