Are Sample Libraries Stagnating?

[AngelCityOutlaw]

One thing I've learned the value of, through regrettable decisions in my youth and whenever I'm paid to compose for projects with serious deadlines, is that of time.

The most time-consuming thing, by far, is sample mockups. I know a lot of composers who are scared at the prospect of having to compose 3+ minutes of music a day. Honestly, I could probably have that done by lunch time most days if I didn't have to spend so much time dicking around with sample mockups. Hiring someone else to do it would still suck up time and cost more money to boot.

I've noted how good Noteperformer is becoming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSlDd5kYHEU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXFO3QBGx0U

Basically, it uses AI to analyze the line and then tries to offer the best playback. I suspect that this technology will be really good by the time NP 5 rolls around.

Most sample libraries are still DAW-based and exclusive, unwieldy, and suffer from a lack of performance homogeneity between articulations. With all but some of the absolute best and most-expensive libraries on the market today (and even then...) you are often forced to compromise between writing music that sounds pleasant and interesting, but a less-than-convincing performance; or a realistic-sounding performance, but a rather bland composition. Strangely, there seems to be little effort in the way of most of these companies to utilize AI and the kinds of technology that the NotePerformer crew is doing.

Instead we see Spitfire and the like coming out with yet another string library, sampling yet another orchestra with more or less the exact same scripting that's been around for years, and everyone is focusing (still) on how great their "true legato" is; how their library is more "legato-y" than the competition's. Ignoring that in most serious music (orchestral or otherwise) legato is used where appropriate rather than constantly like in so many modern compositions.

As I see it, the goal of samples at this point should be for the composer to spend as little time working with them as possible, but it seems like there's no serious industry push to do that despite obviously being a viable pursuit.

What are your thoughts on this? Is there any developer actually trying to propel this all forward and I just haven't heard of them?

[DSmolken]

People are trying. Sample Modeling strings just came out a few weeks ago, Chris Hein is also doing legitimately new things with modeling ensembles one person at a time, and Steinberg Dorico 3 seems better at handling "DAWy" samples than any previous notation software.

A lot of new stuff is new and irrelevant to trying to sound like a real orchestra playing real orchestral music - all the recent granular pianos, 8Dio's Legion series with the 66 tubas playing at once etc.

And there's always demand for non-innovative strings with a nice tone. I've done drums with very innovative stuff like vastly oversized snare drums and modeled brush stirs, and I've done a very simple cello that's doing rarely sampled techniques, but it's not like it takes any sampling innovation to sample pizz ghost notes. OK, the vibrato humanization is pretty neat and improved from what I've done before, but that's pretty much it for innovation which would help with realism. Guess which sold better.

[BertKoor]

Unpopular opinion: sample libraries are real instruments too. I mean, you must take your time to learn to fully control it, get the most out of it to fully express yourself.

Maybe we must take back a step. Composers just compose using only piano and staff paper, musicians play it, overseen by a conductor. Take advantage of the fact people have specialisms.

[anomandaris1]

"AI", right... except that's not real AI. They have probably analysed real performances and their software makes some probabilistic adjustment of the decay, attack, release and vibrato (maybe even intonation) controls, based on the input material that used to train it.
You have complete control in most samplers over this sort of stuff and can do it by yourself better than any so called "AI".
Anyway, I doubt you can come perfectly authentic with samples (but with synthesis anything is possible)/

[perfumer]

Very simple: write the music with pen and paper, then give it to an orchestra to play it for you. You can conduct them to do it exactly the way you like, then hire a studio or a concert hall, and do a recording!

Samples are for dummies, you know. I mean the 'orchestral' shit.

And someone should make an orchestral library exactly the way you like it? Forget about that!

[AngelCityOutlaw]

"AI", right... except that's not real AI. They have probably analysed real performances and their software makes some probabilistic adjustment of the decay, attack, release and vibrato (maybe even intonation) controls, based on the input material that used to train it.

That sounds to me exactly like how they train all these other AIs and neural networks or whatever to do things. The definition is irrelevant, really.

The point is that this kind of technology must be available to these devs who can churn out $1000+ libraries every year, but instead we still get essentially the same technology that's been around for 15 years and a lot of repetitious libraries from them?

You have complete control in most samplers over this sort of stuff and can do it by yourself better than any so called "AI". Anyway, I doubt you can come perfectly authentic with samples (but with synthesis anything is possible)/

You can come close enough to fool laymen and make an acceptable "recording" if you're using the right stuff and playing to its strengths, though.

But, for example, the first page of the Star Wars score up there. The brass chordal rhythms of repeated notes sound better to me than most conventional libraries by a landslide and it took the arranger but the time and effort of notating it to achieve that. Such passages sound like nails on a chalkboard with CineBrass Core and many other libraries to me, which still costs several times as much as NotePerformer itself and the former still receives updates to this day.

There are other sample libraries, and techniques with layering samples, etc. that can do that, but it generally requires a lot more effort and the results can be unpredictable. I think if a sample technology is able to offer those results with much less effort, and at a far cheaper price, it could be competitive.

But it seems to be happening more in the notation field. Which is interesting because most composers today are relying on DAWs and many can't even read notation now. You'd think it would be the other way around?

What I do know, is that while the DAW sample libraries sound quality and such has improved vastly, the play-ability or ease-of-use of them (while maintaining a reasonable semblance of realism) seems to be lagging by comparison.

Very simple: write the music with pen and paper, then give it to an orchestra to play it for you. You can conduct them to do it exactly the way you like, then hire a studio or a concert hall, and do a recording!

Samples are for dummies, you know. I mean the 'orchestral' shit.

And someone should make an orchestral library exactly the way you like it? Forget about that!

Oh wow! That's a great suggestion! Why didn't I think of that? Stellar post! You must be so proud!

You must be the edgy twat of KVR I haven't had the fortune of meeting yet? Every music forum has at least two.

I created the thread for an actual discussion about the technology of the usage of present and emerging sample libraries. If you have nothing of any real value to contribute to the thread, which it seems you don't, go back to fiddle-f**king with your knob — on your synthesizers if you please?

Thanks.

[funky lime]

The point is that this kind of technology must be available to these devs who can churn out $1000+ libraries every year, but instead we still get essentially the same technology that's been around for 15 years and a lot of repetitious libraries from them?

Part of this probably has to do with the ubiquity of Kontakt in the orchestral sample library market. KSP as a scripting language is not well suited for AI or machine learning.

As far as innovation/stagnation, there is possibly a trend toward proprietary playback engines (Spitfire, Orchestral Tools) or more open environments like HISE. This would, theoretically, open up some possibilities that weren't available in Kontakt. But it remains to be seen which possibilities they might explore.

I would think this sort of stuff would happen at the DAW/host level anyway. After all, NotePerformer only works in Sibelius/Finale/Dorico, even though there are DAWs with notation view (Logic, Cubase, Reaper). So it would probably take a fair bit of collaboration between sample library devs and DAW devs. I'm just guessing here, but I'd assume the VI would have to be able to buffer the MIDI of the whole composition well in advance in order to do its thing.

And then there's the issue of being locked into a certain sound in order to get the benefits of this AI analysis or whatever. A composer's VI arsenal has a big affect on their unique sonic identity. And most of the music/orchestration we hear in modern cinematic music seems to focus on sounding "good" rather than sounding "authentic." Think machine gun "Batman" ostinato, sections with 40 cellos or 66 tubas or whatever, hybrid music with synths, sound design and granular resynthesis, extended techniques, unconventional mix/spatial tricks.

The more we let AI determine the "correct" way to play the notes, the less it's our own music.

[Hink]

Oh wow! That's a great suggestion! Why didn't I think of that? Stellar post! You must be so proud!

You must be the edgy twat of KVR I haven't had the fortune of meeting yet? Every music forum has at least two.

I created the thread for an actual discussion about the technology of the usage of present and emerging sample libraries. If you have nothing of any real value to contribute to the thread, which it seems you don't, go back to fiddle-f**king with your knob — on your synthesizers if you please?

Thanks.

then discuss, not make personal attacks in the first few posts because it sets the tone for others join in and the thread will be quickly locked. I will not make this warning twice.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

then discuss, not make personal attacks in the first few posts because it sets the tone for others join in and the thread will be quickly locked. I will not make this warning twice.

That's what I'm doing. Maybe don't make smart-ass, antagonistic comments toward the OP in the first few posts because that sets the tone? Maybe admonish the provocateur instead?

Part of this probably has to do with the ubiquity of Kontakt in the orchestral sample library market. KSP as a scripting language is not well suited for AI or machine learning.

That is a very good point.

As far as innovation/stagnation, there is possibly a trend toward proprietary playback engines (Spitfire, Orchestral Tools) or more open environments like HISE. This would, theoretically, open up some possibilities that weren't available in Kontakt. But it remains to be seen which possibilities they might explore.

Indeed, I hadn't thought about it until you brought it up but there do seem to be some devs turning toward proprietary engines. Good point!

I would think this sort of stuff would happen at the DAW/host level anyway. After all, NotePerformer only works in Sibelius/Finale/Dorico, even though there are DAWs with notation view (Logic, Cubase, Reaper). So it would probably take a fair bit of collaboration between sample library devs and DAW devs. I'm just guessing here, but I'd assume the VI would have to be able to buffer the MIDI of the whole composition well in advance in order to do its thing.

That's probably true.

The more we let AI determine the "correct" way to play the notes, the less it's our own music.

This is an interesting point because the same could be said of human musicians playing it too. Despite the notated instructions, you're sure to get the player's own interpretation regardless — which I always thought was a desirable aspect, and part of the charm of a musician's performance?

[Forgotten]

then discuss, not make personal attacks in the first few posts because it sets the tone for others join in and the thread will be quickly locked. I will not make this warning twice.

That's what I'm doing. Maybe don't make smart-ass, antagonistic comments toward the OP in the first few posts because that sets the tone? Maybe admonish the provocateur instead?

It works both ways, so maybe you should consider not taking the bait?

[AngelCityOutlaw]

then discuss, not make personal attacks in the first few posts because it sets the tone for others join in and the thread will be quickly locked. I will not make this warning twice.

That's what I'm doing. Maybe don't make smart-ass, antagonistic comments toward the OP in the first few posts because that sets the tone? Maybe admonish the provocateur instead?

It works both ways, so maybe you should consider not taking the bait?

Well, what about you? Did you have anything to add or just to stoke a fire?

I'm not going to elucidate on it further beyond this post, but I think this attitude that is prevalent on a lot of forums, specifically among mods, is quite reflective of the anarcho-tyranny and cowardice of modern society. If someone barges in and behaves like an asshole, we are supposed to just take it? To just do nothing or entrust the state (mods) to say and do everything on our behalf? We aren't allowed to even tell the other person to f**k off? Instead, we get punished for not tolerating these people and getting "in the way" of the authorities?

Do you think that maybe that sort of policy is why people like perfumer seem to be so prevalent these days?

Anyways, that's what I have to say about it. Thoughts on samples?

[Forgotten]

I'm not going to elucidate on it further beyond this post, but I think this attitude that is prevalent on a lot of forums, specifically among mods, is quite reflective of the anarcho-tyranny and cowardice of modern society. If someone barges in and behaves like an asshole, we are supposed to just take it? To just do nothing or entrust the state (mods) to say and do everything on our behalf? We aren't allowed to even tell the other person to f**k off? Instead, we get punished for not tolerating these people and getting "in the way" of the authorities?

Did you even read what Hink wrote?

Oh well, if the thread gets locked, don’t say no one warned you.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I'm not going to elucidate on it further beyond this post, but I think this attitude that is prevalent on a lot of forums, specifically among mods, is quite reflective of the anarcho-tyranny and cowardice of modern society. If someone barges in and behaves like an asshole, we are supposed to just take it? To just do nothing or entrust the state (mods) to say and do everything on our behalf? We aren't allowed to even tell the other person to f**k off? Instead, we get punished for not tolerating these people and getting "in the way" of the authorities?

Did you even read what Hink wrote?

Oh well, if the thread gets locked, don’t say no one warned you.

Yes, I did, and? I am not in the wrong here. If you don't want to be told off, don't be a belligerent. I'm not about to let someone else do so on my behalf because they want to be the ones in control of people and their battles under the guise of "order". I guess if your house gets broken into, don't defend it because you might get arrest for assault; don't say no one warned you.

Do you have any intention of speaking about the actual subject of thread or not? If not, please leave.

[Hink]

I'm not going to elucidate on it further beyond this post, but I think this attitude that is prevalent on a lot of forums, specifically among mods, is quite reflective of the anarcho-tyranny and cowardice of modern society. If someone barges in and behaves like an asshole, we are supposed to just take it? To just do nothing or entrust the state (mods) to say and do everything on our behalf? We aren't allowed to even tell the other person to f**k off? Instead, we get punished for not tolerating these people and getting "in the way" of the authorities?

Did you even read what Hink wrote?

Oh well, if the thread gets locked, don’t say no one warned you.

Yes, I did, and? I am not in the wrong here. If you don't want to be told off, don't be a belligerent. I'm not about to let someone else do so on my behalf because they want to be the ones in control of people and their battles under the guise of "order". I guess if your house gets broken into, don't defend it because you might get arrest for assault; don't say no one warned you.

Do you have any intention of speaking about the actual subject of thread or not? If not, please leave.

Look, the post you found to be provoking you (where I commented) was quite tame and really most people would do as forgotten said. Just ignore it, if someone keeps it up let us know with a report and we'll look into it. I'll be straight up with you, I was alerted via report which should tell you members are finding your attitude over the top. I am asking you tone it down some, I agree with you that it should stay on topic but you're not in the right when you make the first personal attacks like you did calling a member a twat among other things.

This thread can go a few ways, one is if this is the tone of the thread I know I can expect equally aggressive responses from members, that means I'm getting non stop notifications and it's gonna get locked.

It could be that people will just figure there is no talking to you and your thread will fade away because they lose interest.

It could be a very interesting thread with some awesome exchanges of ideas, and open discussion. This is imo the best option and the thread has the best chance for being a successful thread. Sure people will fool around a little but we'll do my best to keep that in tow, you may not like it but hopefully you let it slide and just stay the course.

I think the bottom line is people are going to respond to you as you do them, you set the tone for the thread because you started it. If you're aggressive expect aggressiveness in return. If that happens, expect a lock.

[melomood]

I also believe a solution will come and it will have nothing to do with Kontakt or any samplers currently in the market
or those dusty old fashioned keyboard controllers
those are the only 2 cents I have