Studio monitors for small bedroom for EDM

[SparkySpark]

Thanks again, you guys have been really helpfull and it's nice to so a rep pick up on the thread and give some valuable input.

I was going to jump on the train and head to GAK today to check out some speakers, I just got back from spain having rested my ears for a couple of weeks and the 'final mixdown' I had done before going on hols was way too bright and piecing. So I have remastered last night and think I have a mixdown I want to test with, I'm thinking see if it sounds OK on HS7's, even if I'm not buying them and if it does it will be a good test for all the speakers I wish to demo.

So came back to this froum to see if any last advice was available, and now here comes the spanner...

iLoud MTM don't seem to be sold via GAK in Brighton, or at least not when I search their website but if I use the IK Multimedia website to find a dealer near me it lists GAK Brighton, I can't find a suplier near me that stocks them

Thanks for the tip on Ozone, I use Ozone 8, so will be researching that feature for sure!

Re Ozone and Tonal Balance Control: It's kind of an own effect/product, shipped with Ozone Advanced and Neutron Advanced. You put it last in the chain on the Master bus, and it controls the Ozone and Neutron instances in the mix, to tweak them so that your recording stays within the "Pop", "Orchestral" or "Heavy Bass" limits. You can also use another recording - Madonna or whatever well-produced music you like - as a reference. I suspect that in future revisions of Tonal Balance Control, you will have many more built-in references, hopefully a library of well-known songs' freq responses (cfr IRs).

Re the MTMs: I don't think you can buy them yet; they are just being rolled out to the public. I think Thomann states they should arrive withing the next five days or so. I noticed a review video the other day where one song was being played on both the original iLouds and the iLoud MTMs. The sound actually differed quite a lot in the recording between the two systems. It surprised me very much actually, and I honestly preferred the originals on the recording in question. In real life, the MTMs should be better though. Here's the review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YryU_BLC10 It may seem a bit corny or childish, but the guy actually knows some stuff. BTW, in the video you can see the two monitors side by side in the background. Though not very big at all, the MTMs are still about twice as big as the original iLouds.

[1DMF]

Yeah, thanks, I've seen that video, been doing a lot of research on the iLoud MTM.

I prefer the MTM, you can hear the clairty on the tops and the warmth on the bass, plus better stereo imaging, the iLoud mini's sounded tinny and clankerty to my ears like an 80's Amstrad boom box! Though I wonder if he ran the MTM calibration before he did the test as I can see/hear the more 'muffled' effect from the MTM and why you may think the mini's are 'brighter'.

OK time to run, got a train to catch

[SparkySpark]

Yeah, thanks, I've seen that video, been doing a lot of research on the iLoud MTM.

I prefer the MTM, you can hear the clairty on the tops and the warmth on the bass, plus better stereo imaging, the iLoud mini's sounded tinny and clankerty to my ears like an 80's Amstrad boom box! Though I wonder if he ran the MTM calibration before he did the test as I can see/hear the more 'muffled' effect from the MTM and why you may think the mini's are 'brighter'.

OK time to run, got a train to catch

Interesting to hear your thoughts! Of course, our judgements would also depend on the stuff we use to listen to the YT movie with. I for one have only access to rather cheap headphones from here, so I'm not surprised to hear you saying you prefer the MTMs. Also the recording he made obviously filters the audio from the monitors somewhat, so it's ard to tell in any case.

Nonetheless, it was interesting to hear the huge difference between the three systems! It just goes to show that it seems impossible to get a "true" reference, even from monitors. (If there was such a thing as a true reference, Yamaha would have gone out of business years ago with their constantly hyped highs.

[Kaine]

Re the MTMs: I don't think you can buy them yet; they are just being rolled out to the public. I think Thomann states they should arrive withing the next five days or so. I noticed a review video the other day where one song was being played on both the original iLouds and the iLoud MTMs. The sound actually differed quite a lot in the recording between the two systems.

Yes, the MTM's are out and I think our stock landed a week or so ago. I had a limited play with them at NAMM as was pretty impressed at the time, but setting them up here to demo really drove home how good the DSP is at room correction and we've all been pretty impressed with them up here.

To note, you've got standard 14 day rejection (DSR) terms on any long distance purchase in the UK as long as it isn't miss-treated, so trying out a set in your own studio shouldn't be too problematic if that solves your lack of being able to test them locally issue.

[1DMF]

Well, I'm back from my first test run to GAK for auditioning some monitors and was intrigued by my first impressions.

Please remember, this is just my personal opinion, no offence is intended, but I will be truthfull and honest with how I felt.

Firstly I was thrown by the fact they couldn't play CD's, I know this is the digital age, but WAV is still better then MP3 and playing MP3 from a USB stick / MP3 player via a phono jack to do a sound test on high end studio monitors is just wrong IMO.

That aside, straight away I could hear that presonus amp buzz / background fuzz while the shop assitant went away to rip the MP3 from my USB stick to his iPhone, leaving me with just the studio ambience background hum to enjoy.

Once a few demo tracks were ready to play, I started with the presonus Eris 3/4/5 no thank you, totally underwhelming sound from them.

As for KRK they only had rockits, so for fun I A/B'd them, but knew they were never on the list and was also uderwhlemed, but also intrigued how some artists manage to get such a great sound out of them!

Then the first critical test I was dreading, HS5/7/8, do you know what, WOW, OK forget 5's , not enough of anything to get a feel for the track, but the HS7, the overall quality of the sound, the depth and space, was incredible, I was over the moon my mix sounded so damn good on them, yes the bass is lacking for any room shaking, but that isn't what I'm looking for, I want clarity and true representation across all frequencies and depth of sound and that's what the HS7 seemed to give me, and for a small space, I prefer the 7 to the 8.

In fact how good overall my track sounded on them is a real conundrum for me, not firstly because of the "if it sounds good on them it will translate well to anything" ethos, but also how bad the track sounded on some of the other speakers, costing much more.

Which brings me to the Genelecs, yuk, OMG, these sound awfull, they hurt my ears, have no bass definition and are truely awfull, and yes I'm going to upset some with that statement, but I gave a pre-warning, and no accounting for taste as they say, however one thing I must be, is truthful! And the smaller ones (A30CP) sounded better than the bigger ones (A40BPM) , the treble was so high and uncomfortable, it actually tainted the demo of other speakers for a few minutes and I had to go get some silence to reset my ears!

I was quite impressed by the Adam speakers, especially how smaller they were than I expected the same with the Yammy's, the photo's show them appearing bigger than they are, and even the A77X MTM were much smaller than I expected.

As for how they sound, the T7V was rather impressive and for the price seems like a good all rounder, though it seems to miss clarity in places and I wasn't sure if I liked the bass representation from them or not.

The A7X were very nice clarity wise, but there is no bass on these speakers really, no depth and warmth, just clarity and found myself veering more towards the Focal Shape 50, the Shaoe 40 had no oomph to it, but I thought the focal shape 50 was good and quite unexpected.

So I then tried the Adam A77X MTM and wow, the clarity on these is phenominal, but again it seemed like it lacked bass and I wasn't sure if I thought they were a little high, and fatiguing to the ear.

However, when I then switched back to the Focal Shape 50's I thought, hmm, not sure I like them so much now, they sound muffled and a bit boomy now.

However, I wasn't sure if that was the A77X being so bright and clear that it had fatigued my ears and I could no longer hear anything properly.

So I got them to flick it to the HS7's again, and wow, it still sounded so balanced and clear and clean. Yes less bright, but stilll clean and well defined between the frequenices and yet I was less taken by the Focal Shape 50's.

Unfortuinately they don't have E66 MTM to test, but said they could order them on request so I could always return if not happy, but I would prefer to go listen to them before making any purchase, and that also leaves the iLoud MTM, which again I am unable to find local to listen to so might have to buy and return if not happy.

What I am totally sure of is that although I might like to buy the Adam A77X or even the iLoud MTM or E66 MTM , I will be buying a second hand pair or perhaps even new as @£320 for a new pair of white yammy's HS7's isn't breaking the bank as it would give me a second pair to A/B demo on that I can trust and like the sound of.

They were lacking in places, but the over all quality, depth and mix definition seemed to be top draw and for the money, they are definately a smart money choice.

I need to go back with my own device with a few selected tracks and try the ones I'm interested in again to see if I still feel the same and I think I want to listen to the Focal Shape 65, E66 MTM and iLoud MTM before I commit to paying £600/£700+ on a pair of speakers, after all the A77X are @ £1,100-£1,300 a pair, so not exactly small change!

I'm thinking in the end the A77X are good, really good but they probably need a bigger room and paired with a sub woofer, and that's heading towards, 2k for a proper set up.

They had some Focal Trio6 but I didn't see the point in trying them as they are @ £1,600-£1,800 so much more for a single monitor than a pair of Adam A77X so no point in teasing yourself!

I think iLoud MTM with Yamaha HS7 to A/B might be a good combination, depending on how the iLoud's really sound and as long as it's not just marketing hype, but then again I might not like the speaker myself, after all many rave about Genelec and I absolutely hated them!

Who know's maybe E66 MTM is a cheaper compromise to Adam A77X thought it's not clear how big the E66's are compared to A77X.

Well at least I've got a feel for a few speakers, and managed to rule some out so heading in the right direction.

Regards,

Craig.

[Passing Bye]

I was over the moon my mix sounded so damn good on them

I would personally pick monitors that revealed problems with my mix, not masked them with own signature, you are buying monitors, not hi fi speakers for living room, as you said

In fact how good overall my track sounded on them is a real conundrum for me, not firstly because of the "if it sounds good on them it will translate well to anything" ethos, but also how bad the track sounded on some of the other speakers, costing much more.

so yeah, maybe those other pricier speakers actually revealed those flaws... also speakers have own signature, "good" is relative, if it sounds "right" which is also quite relative, because you need to know how that sounds, as you compensate for speakers own signature and in some cases it may not sound "good" at all, but overly bright, louder at places and etc.

but again it seemed like it lacked bass

You just probably have skewed expectations about how studio monitors should reproduce lower range.

[1DMF]

Sorry, but I think you miss-interpret some of my comments, I loved the Adams and are what are causing me the biggest trouble.

For my room size I probably shouldn't get them, or I may get the A7X's and there is always a sub addition if desired, after all they were awesome speakers.

The Focal were one's that I really stuggled whether I liked them especially after the A77X, what I liked was no matter what speaker I heard or what track was played, when flicking to the HS7, it was the same, I didin't waver in how my ears heard the track and the clarity and overall depth I was hearing.

That's why I might get 2nd hand HS7's as backup.

What I found interesting was when we had one particular track on flicking between A77X & Focal Shape 50 , on the Focal I would have decreased the bass and increased the treble, yet would do the opposite listening through the A77X, the sales guy agreed, but I have to take onboard they would rather sell me A77X's than Focal Shape 50's or Yamaha HS7's!

I'm not looking for the best flattering speakers, I need to know the choices I'm making by the way I hear the track are the right ones, but I was pleased my track didn't sound garbage on the HS7, and it didn't sound none too shabby on the Adam's niether, I could just hear certains things easier on the HS7 than the A77X, but like I said I was getting ear fatigue by then and i've read reviewers saying they find the Adam's fatiguing, so I need to have a second audition now I have a better understanding of what to expect.

I'm going to do some mix changes and return for comparison, it will be interesting to hear how the changes are reflcted in the speakers.

It's actually applying tonal balance via Ozone 8 recomended here, so that will be interesting

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

I think iLoud MTM with Yamaha HS7 to A/B might be a good combination, depending on how the iLoud's really sound and as long as it's not just marketing hype, but then again I might not like the speaker myself, after all many rave about Genelec and I absolutely hated them!

That might not be a bad setup at all, though I take a little pause to the HS7s in that room. Though this is coming from someone who uses HS50Ms plus sub - the predecessor to the HS5 and iLoud MTM (and iLoud Micro Monitor, then really low-end Realistic Minimus 7s for the worst case reference in the room) in a much larger room.

[1DMF]

though I take a little pause to the HS7s in that room

Yeah, I know, though the room we listened to them in wasn't much bigger but it was treated! The small room was possibly why I prefered the 7's to the 8's!

[SparkySpark]

Yes, the MTM's are out and I think our stock landed a week or so ago. I had a limited play with them at NAMM as was pretty impressed at the time, but setting them up here to demo really drove home how good the DSP is at room correction and we've all been pretty impressed with them up here.

To note, you've got standard 14 day rejection (DSR) terms on any long distance purchase in the UK as long as it isn't miss-treated, so trying out a set in your own studio shouldn't be too problematic if that solves your lack of being able to test them locally issue.

Hi Kaine,

I notice you are from Manchester, and I assume you work in a music shop. I've actually been up for a job interview in Lancaster and so I may end up not far from your store. How cool it would be to purchase hardware stuff from a fellow KVRAF!

[SparkySpark]

though I take a little pause to the HS7s in that room

Yeah, I know, though the room we listened to them in wasn't much bigger but it was treated! The small room was possibly why I prefered the 7's to the 8's!

I'm not sure, but the Yamahas are monitors I'd personally stay away from. Why? Because stuff made by Yamaha is, in my opinion, exaggerating the highs. I have discussed this matter with the programme director of one of UK's sound design university research groups, and he agrees with me (he also added that the same philosophy is evident in their grand pianos, with their extremely "shiny" sound).

Of course, they may still be right for you, but just make sure you don't find them harsh and also lacking in the bass region.

For me, tonal balance is the main matter when demoing monitors. As long as you feel confident you get the correct amount of bass vs mids and treble, I would just go with whatever makes me enjoying working with the monitors (rather than having monitors revealing every mistake - that's what headphones are for).

So what's to enjoy, more than tonal balance? Of course clarity and stereo imaging, but also looks and possibly handling.

Perhaps there is a risk with VERY revealing monitors BTW: my cousin owned a recording studio and a group I played in mixed an album there. He had very detailed monitors but the mixes didn't translate very well to other systems because consumer HiFi loudspeakers simply didn't play back all those details.

Morale of the story: choosing the right monitor is not easy; in fact there probably isn't any right choice.

It was also interesting to read about your experience demoing monitors. I did the same thing in Stockholm many years ago, bringing some well-mixed CDs I knew well and that represented my music style. It surprised me how big the difference is between monitors (they had fifteen in total, which was great)! Like you I didn't like the KRKs at all. The Genelecs fared ok, but they were not my top choice and they were quite pricey.

For me, it came down to the Mackie HR-824 and similar-sounding monitors from Behringer (B2030 or B2031 if memory serves me right). I ended up with the inexpensive Behringers and was really happy with them. (They would be much too large for you though.)

I must say it would probably have been wiser to use a well-mixed album than your own music, since you may not know if your music is perfectly balanced. Maybe something to keep in mind, should you go back to the store and audition some more.

[1DMF]

Yeah, I get what you are saying, and one of the tracks I used was mastered by the artist, not me and so knew how it should sound without any bias, and it is produced and mastered very well.

I've yet to check if it is a fully balanced track, but it was this track that helped me be able to dislike the Genelecs, this track sounded fine on all the other speakers, so I could rule them out simply on that basis.

Much advice from many sources all echo the same sentiment, your audience is listening on crap or half decent headphones / ear buds etc.. so aren't going to hear half of what I am worying over in the studio. it's about a good overall sound that translates well.

In the end I need to work with a pair and then see how I feel about them!

They didn't have Makie to demo, which was a shame as they don't stock them, same with the KRK S6V4

[toonertik]

I would like to revise my suggestion from page 1 due to the recent development of the new iLouds.

Kaine from ScanProAudio has

To note, you've got standard 14 day rejection (DSR) terms on any long distance purchase in the UK as long as it isn't miss-treated, so trying out a set in your own studio shouldn't be too problematic if that solves your lack of being able to test them locally issue.

.

The other thing I will mention again... some room treatment.
I got some PrimeAcoustic London 10 (I think that's what they're called) and the difference was really noticeable.

The other thing to note is.... what ever your monitors, get to know them... and know them well. I have an old pair of JBL 4310's from 1980 (although in storage now, since my room is too small for them ) and used them up until 2010. I still love their sound but it is the JBL sound... maybe not so pure/accurate as some more modern monitors... but |I knew them and their sound inside out, so to speak.

[1DMF]

I have a good friend who uses JBL305 , GAK didn't have JBL to demo either

Like you say, you have to learn your speaker no matter which one you choose.

I now have the headache of trying to decide what audio interface to get.

Though regardless of monitors I end up getting, I think I might get a pair of Sennheiser HD600 headphones as a belt and braces approach.

[andymcbain]

Hi Kaine,

I notice you are from Manchester, and I assume you work in a music shop. I've actually been up for a job interview in Lancaster and so I may end up not far from your store. How cool it would be to purchase hardware stuff from a fellow KVRAF!

What brings you to our sleepy little city?