Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
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biscuitdough wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:46 pm Just keeping track of synths people have mentioned they would like added to the initial comparison post:

Ableton Wavetable
Dune 3
Fathom
Halion
Hive 2
Predator 2
Synthmaster

Melda MPowersynth and Ocean Swift's new Enterprise may also be worth comparing. I'm not sure if any of the Waldorf stuff like Nave or Largo counts, or if it's more old-school wavetable scanning a la Prophet VS rather than what people think of as a wavetable synth in the plugin world.
You missed Phase Plant... way more than just a WT synth (other generators available and all that modular madness) but the WT part of it is very advanced. Someone posted the specs for you earlier. It's getting a lot of hype with producers so should really be on the list.

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Per Salbark wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:32 am Adding some details on Phase Plant by Kilohearts:

Version # used & List Price:
Phase Plant 1.7.3: $169 - $349

GUI (very subjective):
Phase Plant: Dark gray and neon blue theme. Big waveforms that update on modulation. One-screen interface without tabs. Some pop-out editors.

Number of Factory Wavetables:
Phase Plant: ≈ 200

3rd Party & DIY Wavetables:
Phase Plant: Loads common wavetable formats. Include your own wt-folder. Loads WAVs. Full import/convert editor. Has full WT editor to modify or create new.

Wavetable Organization:
Phase Plant: Uses the folder structure on your computer, so however you like.

Number of Wavetable Oscs:
Phase Plant: Up to 32. (Doesn't have to be WT-generators. Can be Analog/Sampler/Noise)

Wavetable Modulations:
Phase Plant: Custom linear or Spectral Morphs. No pre-defined Bend-modes, but you can set them up through the extensive FM/PMing capabilities. The WT editor offers many morhpable effects such as Automatic EQing, Comb Filtering, Dispersing, Phase Offset, "Power Sync", Rectify, Self-FM e.t.c. And many other tools.

Number of additional audible Oscs:
Phase Plant: Does not apply.

Noise oscs:
Phase Plant: Up to 32 (as said before) parametric Noice generators. Also comes with a bunch of noise WTs.

Non-WT osc engines:
Phase Plant: Classic subtractive analog osc, Sampler that can be bullied into some grain stuff.

Unison:
Phase Plant: Each generator can have up to 8 voices. There is up to 8 global unison, and there are several FX modules that create even more voices. Current record is close to 2000 simultaneous voices I think :)

Able to add distortion before or between filters:
Phase Plant: Yes. Put them anywhere you like in your routing. Either in the generator stack, or in the FX lanes.

ARP/ Sequencer:
Phase Plant: No midi effects, if that's what you are asking? You can create simple arpeggios and sequences with the freeform LFOs if you like.

Total LFO/Mseg/Envelope Modulators:
Phase Plant: Any number of each.

LFOs:
Phase Plant: Any number. Custom editor for shapes.

Envelopes:
Phase Plant: Any Number. Each group that is to make a sound needs an output module and it has an ENV built in. On top of that you can add any number of extras in the modulator lane.

MSEG
Phase Plant: The custom LFOs double as MSEGs.

Macros:
Phase Plant: 8 Macro knobs. Because of the modular nature many parameters are not available for automation, but have to be routed through a macro first.

CPU Usage:
Phase Plant: I can't recreate your test in a reliable manner, so you might want to download the trial and do it yourself.

Midi Support:
Phase Plant: Note, Pressure/Aftertouch, Velocity. Midi-bind on macros.

Screen resolution at 100%:
Phase Plant: 1247px wide initially. Height freely resizable.

Resizeable:
Phase Plant: Yes, in 5% increments up to 500%, or as big as your screen. High-DPI compatible.

Hardware accelerated:
Phase Plant: No

Visualisation (is there a modulation depth preview)?
Phase Plant: Yes.

How many GUI themes are included by the vendor? Dark/Bright/Color?
Phase Plant: 0

Drag and Drop modulation?
Phase Plant: Yes
There ya go. :-)

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What about UVI Falcon, Dune 3 and Hive 2?

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Great work, thanks.
I’d like to see the PPG and some of the others added to the OP but i realize it’s a time consuming task and it looks as if you have put a lot of time in already.
Rapid looks great, hadn’t noticed it before.
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if this post is edited -it was for punctuation, grammar, or to make it coherent (or make me seem coherent).

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goldenlotus12
Pigments is awesome super fast and easy to use
Have to agree with you wholeheartedly here.

Pigments is the first synth I've used where I don't get lost.

I can quickly create wonderful sounds from scratch, which might be small beer to some here (fair enough), but to me this is a huge bonus.

Most synths baffled me with their envelopes, lfos and modulations, but not any more.

I can see exactly what I'm doing, or analyse presets someone else has made, with ease.

This is worth the trade-off in cpu, or lack of other stuff that other wt synths have.

I've never enjoyed sound design so much :)
Member 12, Studio One v6.5, VPS Avenger, Kontakt 7, Spitfire, Dune, Arturia, Sonible, Baby Audio, CableGuys, Nektar Panorama P1, Vaporizer 2 to test out

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inforlk wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:14 pm What about UVI Falcon, Dune 3 and Hive 2?
All VSTs mentioned in this thread's title are missing

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Huh? Missing from where? Those three aren’t in the title. Maybe i’m missing Something :D
gadgets an gizmos..make noise https://soundcloud.com/crystalawareness Restocked: 3/24
old stuff http://ww.dancingbearaudioresearch.com/
if this post is edited -it was for punctuation, grammar, or to make it coherent (or make me seem coherent).

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Biome_Digital wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:57 pm a vote to add Phaseplant to this
:tu: :tu: Indeed! PhasePlant must be added to this list. It's a very powerful synth.

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Thank you for this great thread.

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rj0 wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:56 pm Kubik! You left out Kubik!

OK, just kidding, but not that long ago (OK, maybe it was that long ago ...) there wasn't much else going on in wavetable synths other than PPG. Kubik seemed like the wave of the future, ... except the main interest was in 'analog' (hey, good too!), and wavetable synths seemed to be fading fringe interests. Awesome to see that they've come mainstream.
OK, maybe not entirely kidding.

Got back into Kubik a bit. Had forgotten how much control it provides.

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Coda4 wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:31 pm
jeffb01 wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:41 pm
Coda4 wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:22 pm
Would Rapid give me something that DUNE lacks?
Here's a few things that rapid does that dune lacks:

1. Wavetable modulation (Phase Modulation, Ring Modulation, Sync, Formant shift, Phase Bend (side, mid, double), Mirror, Chaos phase). I don't think Dune can do much with the wavetables, but I hear there are some workarounds. This is the most important one as it's a full wavetable synth.

2. A more versatile 3 operator FM synth per layer. In dune, only operator 3 of the FM osc actually outputs. In Rapid you can anything affect anything in those 3 operators - and be any shape.

3. The LFOs have slots for two shapes and can morph or crossfade between them as well as bend the wave so you can really have morphing LFOs.

4. In Rapid, you have more envelopes and they have controllable curves and you can modulate them. It seems that besides for rate, the modulators are pretty static in general in Dune 3.

5. Rapid has a different kind of MSEG (sequences) that's almost a more powerful version of the performer from o.g. massive. I'm not saying they're better than dune's msegs, I'm just saying it's different.

Obviously, Dune does a lot of things Rapid can't, but you didn't ask that. BTW, I just have the demo of Dune so let me know if I got something wrong. These were just off the top of my head. And I agree that I'll never use 8 layers on one patch, but you can do cool things with two or three.
I see, thanks. Good points.
Also, for Rapid I understand that you can load and import a sample and use it as a sound source? Like could I import a .wav to use as a sound source?

I was thinking these 2 could work well together: DUNE for the more VA, subtractive stuff, and Rapid for evolving wavetable sounds
Latest version of Rapid (free updates) has added an "Organic drift" modulation to OSC, obviously aiming to cover VA sound.

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Bitwig sampler now also plays WT, drag and drop Serum WTs and lots of modulation possibilities with unified modulation system.

I think Rapid is currently my favourite WT synth, but looking forward to Icarus 2
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Great thread! Thank you OP. I decided I was going to pick up a new synth this sale season and pretty much settled on Arturia Pigments. Then I discovered Parawave Rapid and noted the CPU data here indicating that Pigments may be a bit piggy. I spent an hour comparing the two while watching my HWinfo meter and am getting better performance from Pigments than Rapid. I noticed that Rapid pushes single threads a lot higher (50% +), where Pigments spreads the load much better among the 16 threads (rarely peaking a thread above 20%), and the total load as rated by HWinfo as a couple points lower. At least in my case, the Ryzen 3700x is well suited to Pigments. I know this is apples and oranges, but I ran through at least 25 polyphonic patches on each. I do think that the reverb in Rapid is MUCH better than Pigments'. That really makes most patches in Rapid sound better to me, but I have some very good outboard 'verbs. SO.... still weighing the two. I think I have a few more days of sale prices to make a decision. Sound and CPU are not my only factors. I own Falcon and nothing I have heard can touch it for sound. But it is complex as heck. I am looking for the other kind of PHD required program-ability (Push Here Dummy!)
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eluherlu wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:20 am Just bought Avenger while on sale, not disappointed at all.
It still is $110 (through Christmas) I am totally happy. Instead of upgrading my Nexus2 I bought this instead. What I found great was how easy it was to edit parameters and get a good sound. I was also considering Serum but I seen a you tube vid where they compared Serum and Avenger and Avenger had better sound quality less noise when importing the same wavetable. I am completely happy with Avenger

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I'm demoed most synths mentioned in this thread - which is super informative by the way. Many thanks to the contributors!

I narrowed my choice down to Pigments and Rapid. They are both on sale at the moment for almost the same modest amount of around 110eur/85gbp.
Pigments has been instant love... in the 20min demo windows I managed to make some pretty complex patches and even had time to play around with them. I feel like the factory presets in Pigments don't represent the sonic capability of the synth. They can be very misleading. Most basses and pads are mushy nonsense.
Rapid's sound quality is far more obvious straight away because the demo factory presets are well made, hard hitting EDM style as opposed to Pigments post rock style. ..lol
I tested Pigments in one of my typical very busy projects in Reaper, running a heap of guitar amp emulations (mercuriall reaxis, ss11x on many tacks), very heavy vocal processing and lots of analog style mixing effects etc. It looks like I won't be able to have more than two Pigments tracks on such projects even with a 1024 block size.
So I'm undecided... Pigments is an incredible instrument, fun and deeply educational. Rapid has a huge crisp and velvety sound but I found the interface not very intuitive. It took me a long time to find the dinky button to switch on the arpeggiator etc - I had no idea what I was doing most of the time lol

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