KVR Audio

Kim Lajoie · Post by **Kim Lajoie** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:02 am

SX2 rocks. Welcome to the fold.

Forever,

Kim.

bluedad · Post by **bluedad** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:11 am

ttoz wrote: bizarre, i'll look into it today

no worries.

oh, and welcome to the SX family!

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:20 am

just one more small step to Sonar 4 now

mauseoleum · Post by **mauseoleum** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:09 am

well to be honest, I always doubted about ttoz' logic abilities. he must be blond after all.

sorry, t. just HAD to.

skybax · Post by **skybax** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:19 pm

random wrote: it amazes me how many times you see people switch an application, when it was the fact that they didn't know how to do something within the app.

that's so true.

cptgone · Post by **cptgone** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:11 pm

BONES wrote:The mouse is the most obvious but Apple's attitude to a lot of things is mystifying to me. At times its as if they really don't want to be taken seriously.

there's one thing in common with all the shit they introduced the last years and that's:

it sells!

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:19 pm

Welcome back to the dark side Theo. I knew you'd come back to join us.

In the end, they're all just hosts.

Devon

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:48 pm

DevonB wrote:Welcome back to the dark side Theo. I knew you'd come back to join us. In the end, they're all just hosts.

Devon

I think they are all pretty similar but Logic does seem to be way ahead of the pack in its automation handling. What do people using other hosts do, just resign themselves to a lot of tedious manual copying and pasting?

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:52 pm

skybax wrote:
random wrote: it amazes me how many times you see people switch an application, when it was the fact that they didn't know how to do something within the app.
that's so true.

It also amazes me how insistent people tend to be that someone that doesn't like their favorite host just don't understand it properly.

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:01 pm

kuniklo wrote:
DevonB wrote:Welcome back to the dark side Theo. I knew you'd come back to join us. In the end, they're all just hosts.

Devon
I think they are all pretty similar but Logic does seem to be way ahead of the pack in its automation handling. What do people using other hosts do, just resign themselves to a lot of tedious manual copying and pasting?

Not everyone needs tons of tedious automation either. Real time is your friend.

Devon

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:05 pm

automation seems to be the new penis prosthesis

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:16 pm

DevonB wrote: Not everyone needs tons of tedious automation either. Real time is your friend.

Devon

It's *for* realtime that I rely on automation. I rarely edit automation manually after I record it but I use it heavily to make things sound less stiff.

Here's the scenario I find myself frustrated with in Live, Sonar, and Cubase:

1. Grab a vst at random.
2. Record an improvised riff, tweaking either controls on a midi controller or directly manipulating the vst ui with the mouse.
3. Treat the resulting clip as a logical unit that can be copied or moved around without a lot of hassle.

This seems pretty basic but so far seems impossible to do in all the hosts I've tried:

* sonar - doesn't record vst ui events, stacks all automation curves on top of each other so they're a hassle to edit

* live - doesn't record vst ui events, makes you browse through huge menus of cryptically named parameters to see curves one at a time. does move the automation data around with the clip at least.

* cubase - does record vst ui events, displays each parameter in its own lane for easy editing. falls down when you try to move the midi clip around. by default there's no connection between the midi clip and automation. you can group them but they only move together if the automation lanes are fully expanded when you move the clip. useless.

Logic seems to get this simple task right. It records vst ui movements. I can easily map midi ccs into vst parameter lanes so it's easy to see what's being automated. Moving the midi clip around does what you'd expect. I can drag the clip out for looping Sonar-style and either loop the automation along with it or draw a new curve across the loops.

Gravy on all of this is that I can easily pack a bunch of clips into a horizontal folder and move that around as a unit like a scene in Live. Still haven't figured out a good way to do this in any other host.

I'm not interested in a host dick wagging contest. We've had plenty of those. From what I can tell Logic does the things I care about most better than other hosts and its shortcomings compared to other hosts don't affect the way I like to work very much. Your results may vary.

Kim Lajoie · Post by **Kim Lajoie** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:30 pm

kuniklo wrote:Here's the scenario I find myself frustrated with in Live, Sonar, and Cubase:

1. Grab a vst at random.
2. Record an improvised riff, tweaking either controls on a midi controller or directly manipulating the vst ui with the mouse.
3. Treat the resulting clip as a logical unit that can be copied or moved around without a lot of hassle.

This seems pretty basic but so far seems impossible to do in all the hosts I've tried:

* cubase - does record vst ui events, displays each parameter in its own lane for easy editing. falls down when you try to move the midi clip around. by default there's no connection between the midi clip and automation. you can group them but they only move together if the automation lanes are fully expanded when you move the clip. useless.

I'm pretty sure Cubase SX2 has an option to automatically group automation with events, so you can do exactly what you've described. I don't have that option turned on though, because it doesn't suit the way I work.

Forever,

Kim.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:34 pm

Jeez wrote: I'm pretty sure Cubase SX2 has an option to automatically group automation with events, so you can do exactly what you've described. I don't have that option turned on though, because it doesn't suit the way I work.

Forever,

Kim.

It doesn't do what you think it does. It works with audio clips but not with vst automation curves. There are a lot of threads on the cubase forums about this. Steinberg has said they're aware of the desire for this but haven't said anything about plans to change it.

Mr. Slater's Parrot · Post by **Mr. Slater's Parrot** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:15 pm

* sonar - doesn't record vst ui events, stacks all automation curves on top of each other so they're a hassle to edit

One way to get the job done in Sonar is to use Chainer wrapped with DirectiXer.

You make an instance of Chainer in Sonar and load your VSTi in the Chainer instance. You can then do midi-learn on any control in the VSTi. You can then record midi cc events using your midi keyboard controller or by using the mouse on the VSTi UI (or both) while playing notes at the same time. The midi events for the controllers and UI knob movements are part of the recorded midi clip and move with it when you drag&drop or cut&paste it later. And, you can see and edit the values for each control one at a time in the Piano Roll View so that there is no issue with stacking.

Not as nice as having it all built in, but this works when you need it.

Hell freezes over..TTOZ ditches logic and his mac for SX2 PC