Available now: Tone2 Icarus2.5 - Wavetable Workstation

[Echoes in the Attic]

What's in general wrong with asking the users what they expect?

I already own the detailed technical specification from Roli. The MPE specs are not clear in every place. They just say 'a meaningfully behavior'.

I also contacted Roger Linn and am collaborating with him.

This is what kvr-member 'Echoes in the Attic' wrote:

"Looking forward to seeing if mono modes work normally in mpe mode as well. Even though mpe is meant for polyphony, mono modes can still be really cool with mpe devices. Only a few synths work correctly in mono - Cypher, Equator and now Phonec 2. You can hold one note and play a second note on and off with bends and expressions and the first note always triggers properly when you lift the second note. Makes for some cool playing techniques."

Hi Markus, mono modes should work just like the poly modes in terms of mpe expression, except that played notes get cut off according to the settings (mono retrigger or legato). The notes should still get individual expressions even when allowing only one note at a time. I’ve often wondered if the spec adequately covers this. But for guidance I would look at those instruments created by companies that are also mpe hardware creators, in particular the Roli synths - equator, strobe and cypher. The bitwig instruments are another good example. To me it seems pretty intuitive that you should be able to change a patch from polyphonic to monophonic and all expressions remain the same. It is also intuitive that when you are playing mono and do fast expressions on successive notes that you don’t want notes to get confused and receive expressions from other notes. Do this simple test: in mono mode (last note priority) play a note and hold it. Now while holding that play and bend a second note up a couple semi-tones and then release it. The first held note should play upon release without any bend or glitch (as it was originally played).

You should be able to download a demo of cypher or strobe to see examples of mpe mono patches.

[enCiphered]

Markus, I have a question regarding the randomization feature in Icarus 2.
I´ve already suggested in the first pages that it is extremely important to implement controlled randomization with the ability to lock individual parameters. Not only randomization. Everytime I work with Gladiator and use the randomize button, it never makes any real sense to me because EVERYTHING gets randomized. Even the global volume button. Everytime I hit random, I´m really scared to press a key to listen to the generated sound because there is always a good chance that I suffer serious ear damage. And this is not a joke.
Could you please fix that in Gladiator? 95% of the generated sounds are useless to me because I´m not able to apply controlled randomization. (Keep filter settings but change OSC source and modulation or keep effects and filter settings and only randomize modulation etc...)
How will it work in Icarus 2, can you give us a short preview or explanation?

Thanks

[Markus Krause]

I don't know if you made bad experiences with other synths, but what you write here about Gladiator is simply not true. During the last 10 years we also have not received a single complain from the customers side that there would be completely useless patches or patches that would create ear damage. The opposite is the case. Many customers were happy with the good results that they get.
Gladiator does not randomize any parameter in an naive manner. It picks a random, existing patch and varies that harmonic content. The rest of the patch is not randomized at all. The variation in the volume knob is because the original patches do also use different volumes (which are normalized by the way). For additional security there is also an output limiter which prevents extreme volumes.
In Gladiator you can randomize a complete patch or the content of both HCM windows individually.

In Icarus you can create a complete random patch or randomize the wavetable of each oscillator individually.

So far we have not received request from other users for the ability to lock sections. However we will discuss about this internally.

[enCiphered]

I don't know if you made bad experiences with other synths, but what you write here about Gladiator is simply not true. During the last 10 years we also have not received a single complain from the customers side that there would be completely useless patches or patches that would create ear damage. The opposite is the case. Many customers were happy with the good results that they get.
Gladiator does not randomize any parameter in an naive manner. It picks a random, existing patch and varies that harmonic content. The rest of the patch is not randomized at all. The variation in the volume knob is because the original patches do also use different volumes (which are normalized by the way). For additional security there is also an output limiter which prevents extreme volumes.
In Gladiator you can randomize a complete patch or the content of both HCM windows individually.

In Icarus you can create a complete random patch or randomize the wavetable of each oscillator individually.

So far we have not received request from other users for the ability to lock sections. However we will discuss about this internally.

Let me quote your own manual:

WARNING: BE VERY CAREFUL USING THE RANDOM BUTTON!
The RANDOM button could result in unpredictable sounds. Make sure to insert a reliable
BRICKWALL LIMITER after GLADIATOR to ensure that you don’t blow your speakers - or
even worse, your eardrums!

It happens all the time that the randomization generates extreme resonance and cutoff parameters.
This, the global volume and the UNPREDICTABLE sound is the reason why we need controlled randomization.
I don´t want to complain about Gladiator, I just want to help improve an already amazing synth.
Randomization makes only sense if it can be controlled by locking individual parameters.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Just wanted to mention that parameter locks are still really cool. Both for randomization and also for switching presets.

[Markus Krause]

The handbook was not written by me. I don't know why Bastiaan did insert this section when he wrote it. I assume he did copy & paste it from the FireBird manual because he did assume that it would work in the same way.
You can ignore the warning.
The section from the handbook will be removed. Thanks for pointing this out.

I will explain it again: Gladiator does not randomize the cutoff, resonance or volume at all. It picks an existing patch and varies the content of the OSCs. If an existing patch which did work with the volume / reso / cutoff the new one will most likely also work with this combination, since the original patch was normalized.

I have noticed the request for locking sections. I can't promise that it will be in v2.0. Because i do not want to delay the release further.

[enCiphered]

I understand, thanks for listening and replying. If you could implement locking in a future update it would be amazing.
I really appreciate that you take the time to communicate with your userbase and are open for ideas and improvements. Not many devs are doing that! I have bought your instruments because I am convinced they are among the very best and I love to use them in my music.

Thanks again and all the best for the Icarus 2 release!

[exmatproton]

I understand, thanks for listening and replying. If you could implement locking in a future update it would be amazing.
I really appreciate that you take the time to communicate with your userbase and are open for ideas and improvements. Not many devs are doing that! I have bought your instruments because I am convinced they are among the very best and I love to use them in my music.

Thanks again and all the best for the Icarus 2 release!

+1

[focusrite]

Locking is a great idea and undo

[Caine123]

A big thx to markus for replying here and Listening
Cannot wait to upgrade.

[ENV1]

What's in general wrong with asking the users what they expect?

Well obviously there is nothing 'wrong' with that, its just that most KVR members (including myself) probably dont know a fraction of what Mr. Linn knows about MPE, i.e. if one needs specific details about how things are supposed to work then he is the most likely person to have the answers.

[Markus Krause]

I was in contact with Roger Linn. We will collaborate and he gave me some valuable info about the MPE specification.

I also did measurements with Bitwig. I found out that Bitwig does not stick to the MPE standard that the Midi Manufacturers Association proposes. Icarus will be able to handle this, but I will contact the authors about this. It would be smart if they would do some changes, because it could cause trouble with various MPE compatible plugins.

The MPE configuration message should look like this:
B0 64 06 B0 65 00 B0 06 0F

What Bitwig does is this:
B0 65 00 B0 64 06 B0 06 0F
It is actually more like the RPN for setting up the Pitchbend-range.

You can measure and proof it for yourself.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Hey Markus, it's great that you are in contact with Roger about MPE. One thing I would suggest that might help more tough is to contact the folks at FXpansion/Roli. The reason for this is that they actually make MPE software instruments as well as hardware controllers. And like I said they are the instruments that works best with MPE hardware so they might be able to offer some insight that Roger may not have had experience with, since he isn't in the business of making software.

[Markus Krause]

Just had a phone call with the guys from Bitwig in Berlin. On the phone they did not want to forward me to a programmer or give me the email of a programmer. I had to write an email their support and received a support ticket...

[Echoes in the Attic]

Just had a phone call with the guys from Bitwig in Berlin. On the phone they did not want to forward me to a programmer or give me the email of a programmer. I had to write an email their support and received a support ticket...

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you have better luck with Fxpansion. Their synths work perfectly in Bitwig so maybe they've come across the same issue and know how to deal with it?