Catalina: Apple turns macOS into a closed platform; many audio-devs warned from the upgrade

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15261 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:24 am

Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:18 am
Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:08 am
When i am honest with our customers i can not continue to recommend an operating system to them which frequently has broken compatibilities in the past and that most likely will continue to break compatibilities in the future.
You don’t have a mailing list for them?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

HSum
KVRist
98 posts since 28 Aug, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 am

The more speak up like Markus publicly the more awareness of the problems can be spread. I appreciate it and see it as a clear warning message how bad it can become with Apples policies in future. And we'll definitely remember that when migrating to a new studio soon.

Butwug
KVRist
342 posts since 26 Oct, 2018

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 am

Mac user here. Completely happy with my computer as it’s the smoothest running computer Ive had but will not upgrade to Catalina. At this point I just wished all developers completely stopped supporting Mac so either Apple will get their shit together or make me move to Windows when I eventually get a new computer in the far future. As far as apple users being cult-like, I would disagree. I would say apple hating is even more cultish. Android and windows haters love to hate Apple. It’s comical :lol: I like apple products, but wouldnt mind switching. Knowing Apple, even if all major developers stopped supporting, they would be like “too bad suckas, use Logic.” :lol:

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wrl
KVRist
39 posts since 12 Aug, 2011

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:36 am

Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:06 am
I’m not sure that any of the recent Catalina threads have been beneficial to anyone.
They absolutely have been.
owner/operator LHI Audio

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Spencer Maddox
KVRian
555 posts since 19 Oct, 2017 from a state of anxiety

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:42 am

Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 am

8.) The Audiounit validation is buggy since several years now. It is not been fixed by Apple. As a result plugins are not detected by Logic. The user first has to reboot the computer or the developer has to include a hack (a shell script which forces a restart of the validator) to the installer.
Wait that’s not just me?
Huh. Glad my computer isn't broken I guess...
College Flunkie
Preset Junkie

User avatar
Spencer Maddox
KVRian
555 posts since 19 Oct, 2017 from a state of anxiety

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:43 am

Sooooooooooo. Apple is closing up their ecosystem on MAC OS like they do to IOS. Is that a TLDR version of what I’m seeing here?


Because that’s not very cash money of them if that’s true...
College Flunkie
Preset Junkie

0degree
KVRist
380 posts since 29 Jan, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:44 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:24 am
Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:08 am
When i am honest with our customers i can not continue to recommend an operating system to them which frequently has broken compatibilities in the past and that most likely will continue to break compatibilities in the future.
Advising users to switch to Windows is condescending in it's assumption that somehow Mac users are unaware of this 'Brave New World' of the Windows operating system. At best people will just be neutral about your advice, but at worst you'll just lose customers.
Maybe once Mac users realise that they are losing something because plugins/hosts stop working, they don't have access to 32bit products and freebies they will figure out Apple's OS upgrade process is not exactly the most convinient one. And maybe they will move to Windows unless MS does something similarly stupid.

But the original "recommnedation" to what to say to dev's customers is insanely arrogant and it really feels like "do what we say or else we'll take you down from platform" because they will have a proper tool for that

marzelli
KVRist
68 posts since 13 May, 2018

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:45 am

A Mac is best when it runs Windows on it :D And I can fully understand that now. Have a fine running 2011 Mac here and cannot upgrade to Catalina (not even to Mojave) because it is "too old" though a hackintosh with similar specs had no problem running it. Had Bootcamp running parallel on it and meanwhile use it primarily. I like the Mac displays for design stuff but that's it. I know it's a pita for developers to still support 32bit or older OS and with Catalina it essentially even means double work on different systems. Getting all the mails telling me to not upgrade my OS is a clear sign somethings way off again and again and again. Lesson learned. I don't point my fingers at the devs that are brave enough to resist or even only speak up, I point them at Apple. And their language policy email shows that they know they f***ed up. Unfortunately nothing will change unless we do :shrug:

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15261 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:47 am

HSum wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 am
The more speak up like Markus publicly the more awareness of the problems can be spread. I appreciate it and see it as a clear warning message how bad it can become with Apples policies in future. And we'll definitely remember that when migrating to a new studio soon.
What i find most interesting is that people don't seem to think that this will be a part of Microsoft's future, at some point :shrug:

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
18988 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:50 am

It likely won't be, because MS cannot control all the hardware vendors out there. They cater to a MUCH wider userbase than Apple does, this comes with some responsibilities, like backwards compatibility etc.

HSum
KVRist
98 posts since 28 Aug, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:52 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:47 am
HSum wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 am
The more speak up like Markus publicly the more awareness of the problems can be spread. I appreciate it and see it as a clear warning message how bad it can become with Apples policies in future. And we'll definitely remember that when migrating to a new studio soon.
What i find most interesting is that people don't seem to think that this will be a part of Microsoft's future, at some point :shrug:
Maybe, who knows. But not now, not next year, very likely not in 5 years, and especially not the way Apple did it :wink: One of the core strengths on Windows is compatibility. I can open my Win10 projects & plugins still on my XP backup workstation. I can run plugins that came out under WinXP still on Win10 without hassle. That's a fairly big point.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
5983 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:53 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:47 am
HSum wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 am
The more speak up like Markus publicly the more awareness of the problems can be spread. I appreciate it and see it as a clear warning message how bad it can become with Apples policies in future. And we'll definitely remember that when migrating to a new studio soon.
What i find most interesting is that people don't seem to think that this will be a part of Microsoft's future, at some point :shrug:
Yep. It’s been part of their past on KVR - remember all the threads about how people were really pissed at UAC, or how everyone hated MS for removing the start menu?

Manufacturers make changes and sometimes people don’t like it. It was MS, now it’s Apple, it will probably be MS again...ad nauseam.

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15261 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:03 am

0degree wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:44 am
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:24 am
Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:08 am
When i am honest with our customers i can not continue to recommend an operating system to them which frequently has broken compatibilities in the past and that most likely will continue to break compatibilities in the future.
Advising users to switch to Windows is condescending in it's assumption that somehow Mac users are unaware of this 'Brave New World' of the Windows operating system. At best people will just be neutral about your advice, but at worst you'll just lose customers.
Maybe once Mac users realise that they are losing something because plugins/hosts stop working, they don't have access to 32bit products and freebies they will figure out Apple's OS upgrade process is not exactly the most convinient one. And maybe they will move to Windows unless MS does something similarly stupid.
Of course! Contrary to the (mis)understanding of many, MacOS users are independent people, each of whom make their own decisions based on factors that are important to them. At such point as more is lost by sticking with one platform than could be gained by switching, it will be time to change.

I do have my own threshold of tolerances beyond which I won't pass, and I will have zero-issues switching platforms should that happen. But there is not a single free app, nor 32-bit app that would force my hand. Nor have I ever had a single issue with upgrading my OS (At any moment I can jump between installed partitions of Yosemite, Sierra, High Sierra, and Mojave. And if I chose to install Catalina, just for a laugh, I will lose nothing that a reboot couldn't solve). Not to mention that I have been dual-booting into Windows, via Bootcamp, for almost the entire time I have been a Mac-user. There really is no problem :shrug:

As to "unless MS does something similarly stupid.". Do you mean perhaps Microsoft might wish to ditch their OS' reputation for being a bit of a security nightmare by forcing developer's releases solely through their already-established app-store? Seems almost inconceivable :wink:

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15261 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:05 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:50 am
It likely won't be, because MS cannot control all the hardware vendors out there. They cater to a MUCH wider userbase than Apple does, this comes with some responsibilities, like backwards compatibility etc.
Of course, there are differences. Microsoft don't make the hardware, as Apple does. But they could surely control the route-to-market, for software developers, in exactly the same way as Apple are doing, right? :shrug:

0degree
KVRist
380 posts since 29 Jan, 2017

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:07 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:03 am
As to "unless MS does something similarly stupid.". Do you mean perhaps Microsoft might wish to ditch their OS' reputation for being a bit of a security nightmare by forcing developer's releases solely through their already-established app-store? Seems almost inconceivable :wink:
Yes, that's more or less what I meant :)

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