Catalina: Apple turns macOS into a closed platform; many audio-devs warned from the upgrade

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
Markus Krause
KVRist
217 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:46 am

Etienne1973 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:27 am
Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:20 am
The point is about new restrictions, because they could put developers out of business.
Developers who still have products with 32Bit code in 2019?
No. That's not the point. Today nearly all plugins are an universal binary that contains the 32bit as well as the 64 bit code. The real point is this:
With software notarisation in Catalina macOS is not longer an open platform. Apple now got full control about what software is allowed to run on their system and which not - at least for legit conmmercial software. Now Apple also has full control about the developers - Apple can force us in the future to sell with the app store only. Apple can raise the $99 fee for beeing an Apple dev to $999. They can do anything now because they fully control software distribution now.
The 'security advantage aspect' is only marketing, since it is too easy to bypass for hackers.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

Markus Krause
KVRist
217 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what marketing language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:50 am

For many end users this is a problem:


1) Apple did drop 32 bit support. All 32 bit plugins and every other 32 bit software has stopped working. It is also not longer possible to use a bit-bridge.

and this:

2) Old song projects which use 32 old bit plugins can not longer be loaded.

and this (does not affect my products by the way):

7) Apple tagged OpenGL as 'deprecated' and introduced 'Metal'. A massive number of plugins (espcially those with a resizeable GUI) use it. It is currently unknown when OpenGL will be dropped completely and the plugins will stop to operate.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

Haptix
KVRist
54 posts since 18 Oct, 2019

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what marketing language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:03 am

..
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

Markus Krause
KVRist
217 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Apple looses backing of the audio industry and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:16 pm

Since there has been a missunderstanding from several end-users who read this thread which was initially dedicated to devs i updated the first post and splitted it into catergories:
- problems that affect end-users
- problems that affect developers
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2495 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Apple 'recommends' developers what marketing language they must use because of Catalina incompatibilities

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:18 pm

Etienne1973 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:27 am
Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:20 am
The point is about new restrictions, because they could put developers out of business.
Developers who still have products with 32Bit code in 2019?
No, it was explained.

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2495 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Apple looses backing of the audio industry and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:19 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:16 pm
Since there has been a missunderstanding from several end-users who read this thread which was initially dedicated to devs i updated the first post and splitted it into catergories:
- problems that affect end-users
- problems that affect developers
Very good

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14812 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple looses backing of the audio industry and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:26 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:58 am
Apple loses backing of the audio industry?

Markus Krause
KVRist
217 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:43 pm

edited.

I have talked to several devs in private and know pretty well what's going on behind the scenes. Many devs are very angry and it not economic for them to rewrite large parts of their code.
Please keep in mind that no company will do a statement in the public that they will drop support for Apple, because they will loose sales.

Please also note: I am one of the less-angry devs, because i will do not have to rewrite large parts of my code - at least not this time or when OpenGL support will be dropped.

You can decide for yourself what platform and products you use.
But you have been warned be me and might think back to it when all your plugins that have a zoomable GUI (they use openGL) will stop to work after an macOS update.
Last edited by Markus Krause on Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

User avatar
mladi
KVRian
674 posts since 14 Apr, 2016 from Germany

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:47 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:43 pm
edited.

Please keep in mind that not many companies will such do a statement in the public, because they will loose sales. Their customers could assume that they do not longer put much effort in the platform.
Well it also works the other way around. I just picking some stuff from your product range just to support you. :tu:
Image
Intel® Core™ i9-9900K|Presonus Eris E8 XT|Focusrite Scarlett 18i20|Native Instruments Kontrol S61 MK2|Steinberg Cubase 10 Pro|Stein­berg CC121 Con­troller

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14812 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:54 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:43 pm
edited.

Please keep in mind that not many companies will such do a statement in the public, because they will loose sales. Their customers could assume that they do not longer put much effort in the platform.
Which would lead me to assume that you've done some measure of cost/benefit analysis before starting down this path, and decided it still worth it.

Markus Krause
KVRist
217 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:58 pm

I have talked to several devs in private and know pretty well what's going on behind the scenes. Many devs are very angry and it is not economic for them to rewrite large parts of their code.
Please keep in mind that no company will do a statement in the public that they will drop support for Apple, because they will loose sales.

Please also note: I am one of the less-angry devs, because i will do not have to rewrite large parts of my code - at least not this time or when OpenGL support will be dropped.

You can decide for yourself what platform and products you use.
But you have been warned be me and might think back to it when all your plugins that have a zoomable GUI (they use openGL) will stop to work after an macOS update.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14812 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:14 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:58 pm
I have talked to several devs in private and know pretty well what's going on behind the scenes. Many devs are very angry and it is not economic for them to rewrite large parts of their code.
Please keep in mind that no company will do a statement in the public that they will drop support for Apple, because they will loose sales.

Please also note: I am one of the less-angry devs, because i will do not have to rewrite large parts of my code - at least not this time or when OpenGL support will be dropped.

You can decide for yourself what platform and products you use.
But you have been warned be me and might think back to it when all your plugins that have a zoomable GUI (they use openGL) will stop to work after an macOS update.
Right. So, developers are complaining behind-the-scenes, but are still working to fall in with the update requirements.
No change will happen, if you keep just falling in line. Some sales will likely need to be lost for you to make the kind of statement that would stand any chance of forcing Apple's hand :shrug:

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
5060 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:21 pm

Really? It's "many" now? and it's worse than everyone thinks "behind the scenes"?

Shit or get off the pot - if you don't like it why not just stop developing for the platform. As el-bo points out - nothing is going to happen if you just whine then get on with making the necessary changes.

BlueprintInc
KVRist
97 posts since 9 Apr, 2017

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:32 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:43 pm
I have talked to several devs in private and know pretty well what's going on behind the scenes. Many devs are very angry and it not economic for them to rewrite large parts of their code.
Please keep in mind that no company will do a statement in the public that they will drop support for Apple, because they will loose sales.
Yes, I can back this up. Unfortunately preparation for the very very vocal minority of ranting users is also part of it.

User avatar
Urs
u-he
24056 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Apple looses backing of many audio-developers and turns macOS into a closed platform

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:36 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:58 am
Apple also can raise the $99 fee they have to pay per year to $999 or any other price they like.
To be fair, even if they tenfold the $99, it would still be cheaper than Windows development:

Apple: 0$ (development environment) + 99$/year (Apple dev membership, includes all certificates)
Microsoft: 45$/month/seat (development environment, I think we have 5 seats including build servers) + 500$/year certificate to sign installers

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