Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

[vurt]

yeah, i get that.
not sure i see the point.
it looks like yes, not the smoothest transition.
but they're working on it.

seems everybody is in a rush to be chicken little these days

interesting times we live in...

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

It looks like yes, not the smoothest transition.

Some developers seem to be taking it very easily in their stride. Others, not so much

seems everybody is in a rush to be chicken little these days

Haha! Had to look that one up. Seems pretty apt

interesting times we live in...

Aye! They most certainly are.

[JunSev]

tbh i saw "alliance" and thought thered be xwings.

It's an anti-mac thread so the only wings you'll find are these:

Again that particular apple user that needs to jump to deviate the attention from all facts that are being expressed, like "don't say anything"... "talk about all of that privately, don't speak openly about that"...

Is this really almost blind religious attitude that builds some sort of perspective about many apple users, (not all)...

[ZentralmassivSound]

Where is the fish option?

[mladi]

Where is the fish option?

Here: "No, I'm fine with what Apple does!"

[Markus Krause]

tbh i saw "alliance" and thought thered be xwings.

It's an anti-mac thread so the only wings you'll find are these:

Again that particular apple user that needs to jump to deviate the attention from all facts that are being expressed, like "don't say anything"... "talk about all of that privately, don't speak openly about that"...

Is this really almost blind religious attitude that builds some sort of perspective about many apple users, (not all)...

Do you mean that particular end-user that spams the developer forum with garbage to disturb communication between developers

[InLight-Tone]

What a waste of LIFE/time...

[Haptix]

What a waste of LIFE/time...

Welcome

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

tbh i saw "alliance" and thought thered be xwings.

It's an anti-mac thread so the only wings you'll find are these:

Again that particular apple user that needs to jump to deviate the attention from all facts that are being expressed, like "don't say anything"... "talk about all of that privately, don't speak openly about that"...

Is this really almost blind religious attitude that builds some sort of perspective about many apple users, (not all)...

Do you mean that particular end-user that spams the developer forum with garbage to disturb communication between developers

Spam? That's quite the accusation, Markus. Spam is not tolerated here, and could result in me ending up being banned.

The thread to which I am sure you are referring just seemed like a conversation. I think that I presented well-reasoned arguments in reply to your points, and was certainly a contributing element to the thread transitioning from you 'crying foul' about Apple's intentions, and your exaggeration of the current state of developers' willingness to back away from supporting Apple, to a point where points (for, and against) were being presented in a much clearer, more balanced manner. However, clearly I was mistaken.

So, perhaps you could link to the thread, so that we might all make your case against me. And once we can prove that I have indeed spammed your threads with garbage, you should report me!

[MacGyver]

I really appreciate the initiative of Vojtech/Melda Production. But I also understand, if developers like Urs/U-He do not agree here, or don't want to be generally included here. I think any initiative here is much better than just accepting this trend.

On the other hand I really have no idea how it even is possible that a mac user (I count me in here) can actually be happy about notarization and what Apple does here. I tell you what will happen (also having a bit of background knowledge about hackintosh history):

- Lot of plugins, esp. older (I actually find a lot of old plugins very good) will not be updated for notarization at all, or will fail it.

- It probably will take years, until the remaining plugins are updated. Vendors will charge for this update, without any functional addition, or less functional addition.

- All that talk about "additional" security is IMHO the utter nonsense. There was no security problem at all for macos. From the perspective of a developer who may thinking now it will prevent cracks, I am pretty sure, that all mechanisms of notarization will be circumvented very soon. The general os mechanisms will be circumvented by the hackintosh community (and in my opinion for legit reasons), and the rest will be circumvented by the crackers.

- The real reason of all this is the plan of the total lock-in of developers and users, creating a real monopole situation. I absolutely have no idea how you can happy about this, and I also have no idea why this even is allowed by law, and not prevented.

- Prices will for pro apps raise, since developers get less. Apple will force all devs then sooner or later to use their app store, just like iOS. Then they will force you to also support ARM.

- In the end, it will make macos less attractive for professional and semi-professional creative users. And less attractive for small companies. Instead there will be uncountable tons of "fun" and "lifestyle" apps then for low money.

- Maybe it's true that this debate in the end is just a loss of lifetime. I should just switch to Windows. Just nostalgia which holds me back I believe.

(I didn't vote btw., being a frustrated user only).

[Haptix]

- The real reason of all this is the plan of the total lock-in of developers and users, creating a real monopole situation. I absolutely have no idea how you can happy about this, and I also have no idea why this even is allowed by law, and not prevented.

They (lawmakers) should have stepped up already when Apple started the very same nonsense in the hardware/3rd party repairs looong time ago.

Edit: they did step up with the car manufacturers trying similar shit and stopped it

[D.H. Miltz]

spams the developer forum with garbage to disturb communication between developers

This is the DSP and Plug-in Development forum. It is a public forum. There is a developers-only forum, "for developers who use the KVR Developer Area to manage their product listings at KVR Audio" but this isn't it.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

- Lot of plugins, esp. older (I actually find a lot of old plugins very good) will not be updated for notarization at all, or will fail it.

Definitely a downside. There might be a couple that I will end up losing along the way. Guess it's the price of progress (A word I cautiously use in the sense of forward motion, and without prescribing any positive or negative connotations), which is clearly what Apple thinks this is about.

- It probably will take years, until the remaining plugins are updated. Vendors will charge for this update, without any functional addition, or less functional addition.

I guess this will differ depending on each developer and various factors. What does seem clear is that certain developers, while finding certain aspects annoying, are not really having too much of an issue making the necessary changes. Certainly, there is one developer who seems to have found the whole process very easy.

And I don't see why vendors shouldn't charge for any work they do. Perhaps we've all just taken it for granted that developers will keep our software updated, for free.

- All that talk about "additional" security is IMHO the utter nonsense. There was no security problem at all for macos. From the perspective of a developer who may thinking now it will prevent cracks, I am pretty sure, that all mechanisms of notarization will be circumvented very soon. The general os mechanisms will be circumvented by the hackintosh community (and in my opinion for legit reasons), and the rest will be circumvented by the crackers.

I don't claim to understand much of the implications. However, again, there are developers on this forum who believe that this will result in a more secure situation for them.

- The real reason of all this is the plan of the total lock-in of developers and users, creating a real monopole situation. I absolutely have no idea how you can happy about this, and I also have no idea why this even is allowed by law, and not prevented.

If this is against the law, then it will be dealt with as such.

This whole idea of locking-in has been doing the rounds for a long time. That hasn't stopped companies like Fabfilter, Audio Damage, PSP, and Toneboosters from jumping headlong into iOS development, presumably with the knowledge that iOS and MacOS will at some point become one. Or maybe they've also been blind-sided as it seems have certain developers, here.

- Prices will for pro apps raise, since developers get less. Apple will force all devs then sooner or later to use their app store, just like iOS. Then they will force you to also support ARM.

If prices rise, so be it. I don't have a problem supporting developers I like.

As for forcing dev's: Again, I'm seeing more developers move into the closed iOS system, not away from it

- In the end, it will make macos less attractive for professional and semi-professional creative users. And less attractive for small companies. Instead there will be uncountable tons of "fun" and "lifestyle" apps then for low money.

Urs (U-He) has offered some interesting insight and perspective with regard to this situation.

However, it will definitely be a shame if any developers decide to move on

- Maybe it's true that this debate in the end is just a loss of lifetime. I should just switch to Windows. Just nostalgia which holds me back I believe.

If nostalgia is all that keeps you using MacOS, it's probably the right time to ditch. Too much stigma. Of course, being a fellow hipster, you may have to find some other over-priced trinkets to waste your cash on

[syntonica]

- Prices will for pro apps raise, since developers get less. Apple will force all devs then sooner or later to use their app store, just like iOS. Then they will force you to also support ARM.

Oh noes! Not the Fat Binary! Again!



Xcode handled PPC/Intel fat binaries transparently, it handled Intel 32/64-bit fat binaries transparently, and when the singularity collapse of iOS/macOS finally happens, it will still handle Intel/Arm fat binaries. Transparently. And developers can leisurely update their single codebase to compile and sell for both products. Don't dis the new Apple chips--they're going to smoke Intel soon enough...

I can understand Apple wanting to notarize plugins as they get installed into the forbidden Library folder so that they are accessible to all users. I'd rather see them move all plugins to the /Users/Shared folder and get rid of the /Library/Audio and ~/Library/Audio folders altogether. (Same with Application Support...) Or, some similar idea that splits the /Library off from anything that rummages around in the OS and adds functionality.

Then, plugins would be automatically be sandboxed from the OS itself. Developers will only have one location to look for something. Plugins that use runtime code generation can still do so and everybody joins hands and sings Kumbayah!

Unfortunately, Apple programmers still think like Linux programmers, who we all know are terrific programmers until you put more than one of them together on the same project and you get dreadful shitshows like... well, any open-source Linux application you care to name. They need to think like Steve and aim for simplicity and elegance.

[MacGyver]

Oh noes! Not the Fat Binary! Again!



Xcode handled PPC/Intel fat binaries transparently, it handled Intel 32/64-bit fat binaries transparently, and when the singularity collapse of iOS/macOS finally happens, it will still handle Intel/Arm fat binaries. Transparently.

Sure, the fat binary system is one of the beauties of OSX. I don't know the actual details here, or if this is still relevant, but aren't a lot of "faster" plugins still optimized with pure assembler code? If so, I guess the translation to ARM can be pretty costly. Or make it too costly simply. And then all the used third party SDKs need to be updated OMG. Best is then to use Apple apps only and accept you have to buy a completely new Mac each 4 years or so, without a rational reason other than planned obsolescence.