Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

[fmr]

As a macOS user, I just updated to Mojave (coming from Sierra). Everything I own was running OK in Sierra, uysing the latest versions. By installing Mojave, I had to give up on some stuff, but nothing relevant, for the moment.

So, I must be good for the next three/four years. Since I don't plan to invest a single cent in Apple stuff during this period, I think I'm covered. In four years from now it will be time to reevaluate what is the status of the platform.

For now, I will be following things, without taking any risks.

[mgw38]

The „everyday“ performance the the latest iPhones comes from the hardware accelerated AI. That has impact on face tracking, camera functionality, etc. Traditional specs such as CPU speed and the like are fairly irrelevant for that. When it comes to mobile AI performance, nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip.

What is "mobile AI performance"? I am still waiting for proved evidence of real advantages coming from it. For the moment, it is nothing more than marketing BS, IMO.

And who says "nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip"?

No need to eye roll. There are benchmarks for that and you can look that up. In a nutshell, AI - and I am talking about deep learning on convolutional neural networks here, not what we used to call AI in the old days - benefits from architectures that can run many processes simultaneously. Currently, that is done either GPU based (what NVidia does with the Jetson line) or ARM based (what Apple does with the Bionic Chip line).

[fmr]

And who says "nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip"?

No need to eye roll. There are benchmarks for that and you can look that up.

Be nice, and post some links

[fmr]

In a nutshell, AI - and I am talking about deep learning on convolutional neural networks here, not what we used to call AI in the old days - benefits from architectures that can run many processes simultaneously. Currently, that is done either GPU based (what NVidia does with the Jetson line) or ARM based (what Apple does with the Bionic Chip line).

In a word... HYPE

[stratology]

- Apple haters (including me), who don't like that and want the manufacturer to provideca compatibility layer.

Are you serious? What kind of compatibility layer? Are you talking about 32bit?


You identify yourself as an 'Apple hater'.
What impact do you think that has on your brand? On your advertising? On your customer base?
What is the business rationale behind this?

[Haptix]

It seems tgat we have 2 camps:

- Apple lovers, who like the approach of removing old software and are ok with the fact that every dev out therevwill have to reinvent the wheel.

- Apple haters (including me), who don't like that and want the manufacturer to provideca compatibility layer.

That's pretty much it. Anyways I stand by my opinion. Progress is good, but needs to be done smartly.

Me personally , I am not an Apple hater I just love to hate Apple lovers. I take everything personally what comes to Apple lovers and their arguments. It gives me unimaginable pleasure when they try to ratify the constant bugs and how the very next big update will bring the long waited feeling of euphoria, when the kernel panics and audio drops cease to exist. How they in the meantime glorify the new, superior features which their update brought to them. A brand new emoji pack installer, notarized naturally,

tata and fairwell, may the black woolen shirt bring you warmth and comfort in these cold dark nights.

[MeldaProduction]

- Apple haters (including me), who don't like that and want the manufacturer to provideca compatibility layer.

Are you serious? What kind of compatibility layer? Are you talking about 32bit?


You identify yourself as an 'Apple hater'.
What impact do you think that has on your brand? On your advertising? On your customer base?
What is the business rationale behind this?

Well I called you Apple lover and expected that you would be angry as usual, so I needed to compensate, but you angry anyways, so .
Anyways compatibility layer - I'm talking about Cocoa, OpenGL / Metal, who knows what else will come... I don't care about 32-bit, but I fear some users might...

[audiothing]

It seems tgat we have 2 camps:

- Apple lovers, who like the approach of removing old software and are ok with the fact that every dev out therevwill have to reinvent the wheel.

- Apple haters (including me), who don't like that and want the manufacturer to provideca compatibility layer.

I am neither of them. I just prefer to use a Mac for work, but I also use a Windows machine and several Linux servers. If by "removing old software" you mean, not being able to use a 10-year-old product/technology in the latest version of my OS, yes, I'm ok with that.
I had to pay to upgrade a bunch of apps that I'm using for work over the years, and I'm also ok with that, and happy to support the work of those developers. Nobody is forcing me to update to the latest OS (*cough* Windows Updates *cough*). Older versions of those apps are still working perfectly fine in my older MacBook (mid-2012, still working, so much for the obsolescence).
I also had to upgrade several packages and had to refactor my backend in my linux servers because I wanted to upgrade to a newer OS version. Still ok with that, it was my choice.

Also, I'm not reinventing any wheel. It's just the nature of being a multi-platform developer.
OpenGL won't be deleted any time soon. But if you keep using it on Mac, then that's your fault.

That's pretty much it. Anyways I stand by my opinion. Progress is good, but needs to be done smartly.

Which I totally respect. It's the "smartly" that can be very subjective.
I think it would be really smart to not speak for everyone.

[stratology]

Well I called you Apple lover and expected that you would be angry as usual, so I needed to compensate, but you angry anyways, so .
Anyways compatibility layer - I'm talking about Cocoa, OpenGL / Metal, who knows what else will come... I don't care about 32-bit, but I fear some users might...

You are, once again, making incorrect assumptions. I'm not angry, at all. Just tired of the prejudices. I've been hearing the same, uninformed nonsense for decades..


In terms of compatibility layers, your answer lacks technical detail, as usual. So I still have no idea what you are talking about.

You're not familiar with Radar, are you familiar with Apple Developer documentation?
Here's a link for interoperating Cocoa and Swift.
https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... n_patterns
Again, are you asking for a compatibility layer between programming languages?

Apart from the effort in coding - are there any performance advantages, or any other end user advantages, in choosing OpenGL over Metal?



BTW, you have not answered any of my question about the business impact you hope to achieve by identifying as an 'Apple hater'.

[stratology]

Older versions of those apps are still working perfectly fine in my older MacBook (mid-2012, still working, so much for the obsolescence).

Another good point, that has been made at nauseam in the past.

I still own a PowerBook G4 from 2004. It does everything it could do on the day I bought it. It sits in the other room, used as the occasional print server...

[MeldaProduction]

Which I totally respect. It's the "smartly" that can be very subjective.
I think it would be really smart to not speak for everyone.

Very true! And will do .

stratology: Very well, then let's finally agree that we simply have a different feelings about Apple strategies (that explains your hater question as well). And I know nothing about Metal, except from what I heard it is harder to make the simple stuff we need. From performance point of view I expect it to be better than OpenGL, but that's totally irrelevant.

[stratology]

I know nothing about Metal

/thread

[MrBauer]

Very sad that not only 32bit support is dropped, but you can't even compile for 32bit anymore. To me that's a serious issue because it either implies running several build systems in parallel or follow the Apple movement and drop it. It would have been smarter to stop running 32bit software but let devs still do their work with and for it.

[MeldaProduction]

Very sad that not only 32bit support is dropped, but you can't even compile for 32bit anymore. To me that's a serious issue because it either implies running several build systems in parallel or follow the Apple movement and drop it. It would have been smarter to stop running 32bit software but let devs still do their work with and for it.

Well, personally I don't mind 32-bit murder, the problem is there still is some legacy software people are going to loose... The only advantage of killing the 32-bit mode is that Apple can stop keeping the 32-bit parts of the OS up to date. That's about it...

[mgw38]

And who says "nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip"?

No need to eye roll. There are benchmarks for that and you can look that up.

Be nice, and post some links

Google it! (I always wanted to say that.)

But seriously, look up „Tensorflow Lite performance benchmark“.

The latest Apple chip has 8 dedicated neural network cores. That is still nothing compared to the 128 cores of the Jetson nano or the more than 6000 cores of the latest GPUs. But it is significantly more than 0.