Email from Apple about Catalina :)

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
t3toooo
KVRAF
1946 posts since 25 Dec, 2005

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:51 pm

Wow, Vojtech :clap:

You have my full support. This Company "The Apple" is eating big up development time=Wasted Time. I don't think it is acceptable anymore. It does not only affect you but a lot of other developers. Much more people should talk about it. :tu:
I clearly can not understand some of those arrogant reply's in this thread :dog:

kmonkey
KVRAF
4063 posts since 17 Aug, 2004

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:57 pm

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:27 am

Don't we all miss those <sarcams>wonderfully engineered</sarcasm> flash-based websites?
Sure. Add to that: <sarcams>You are holding it wrong </sarcasm>by Steve, and "who need a stylus" :hihi:

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FabienTDR
KVRian
1046 posts since 24 Feb, 2012

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:47 pm

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:27 am

Don't we all miss those <sarcams>wonderfully engineered</sarcasm> flash-based websites?

Hey Urs, allow me to quote this as well, although I can't find the original post.

This example, as funny it is from today's perspective, almost broke me and my family's neck. Most of my friends and colleagues had massive short term issues. It is likely a primary fact that makes me doubt Apple's moves.

I was exactly one of those developers, pioneering the web 20+ years ago, things that largely turned into standards today. The wildest experiments in web-design, stuff nobody ever tried before. Animation, ajax, "responsiveness", video or complex statefull industrial applications (not "apps") from 3D editors over audio to full expert applications. I made a fantastic living as a flash rockstar, flying around the world, working for the fanciest customers, making really good money. Customers were happy!

Until... ...well... ...until Steve wrote one public letter, highlighting one technical decision that killed a whole rather developed market overnight, for political reasons. Today's "apps" ported most of flash's worst disadvantages onto smart devices (closed system, CPU load, political dependence, fast aging, ads everywhere, etc). Web standards are still a pile of hacks and prehistoric ideas. More banners jumping around than ever, we're still short of CPU power. ;) Apple fixed none of these, but they made money for their shareholders. Plenty of it.

They could kill the whole plugin market over night, replacing it with their own idea, and imposing a massive tax, say, 30%, as they did before. I'm traumatized already, did I mention that I also was one of those stupid windows logic and emagic customers back then. Dropping support from one day to another. ;)

Urs, I get your point as well, the world moves on, history is written by winners, not whiners. But they change in fast and sharp moves. The whole Macromedia ecosystem was elite for almost a decade, until it didn't. Both happened because it was closed. All this right before Apple's big return, effectively applying the same recipe again, with big Wallstreet support. Things change, closed systems get replaced sooner or later. Typically in an unpredictable, irrational manner. Or short: political.

IMHO, sticking heads into their asses is at least as silly as ignoring them. :ud:
Fabien from Tokyo Dawn Records

Check out my audio processors over at the Tokyo Dawn Labs!

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Urs
u-he
24202 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:21 pm

I coincidentally pre-invented pre-Ajax in 1996 and developed a web platform for a radio station. Two years of work went down the drain because Explorer took over from Netscape and the shit didn't work in it, because of a monopolist browser maker's interpretation of Java.

We've all been there. I don't think the move to notarisation and code signatures is such an event.

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Full Bucket
KVRian
637 posts since 25 May, 2010 from Hessisch Uganda, Germany

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Urs wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:21 pm
We've all been there. I don't think the move to notarisation and code signatures is such an event.
I may be wrong but I think it will have an impact on the freeware scene. At least I am carefully checking what the consequences would be for my own stuff. :shrug:

Cheers, Björn

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Urs
u-he
24202 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:36 pm

t3toooo wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:51 pm
Wow, Vojtech :clap:

You have my full support. This Company "The Apple" is eating big up development time=Wasted Time. I don't think it is acceptable anymore. It does not only affect you but a lot of other developers. Much more people should talk about it. :tu:
I clearly can not understand some of those arrogant reply's in this thread :dog:
Typically developers make roughly 50% of their revenue from Mac users. In order to get the same amount of cash flow, they would have to create twice as many products on Windows. Or, in respect of figures mentioned here, about 50% more. It's extremely doubtful that updates to macOS costs more than 30% of their time. It's not "Wasted Time" by any business terms.

They can of course stop to develop for macOS altogether. They lose 30%-50% of their customer base plus a number X of people who appreciate cross platform compatibility. Which according to our latest survey is in a two digit number as well. This is a risk they won't take.

Hence it would be more helpful to seek solutions than to rant for the sake of nothing constructive.

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11778 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:41 pm

Urs you are missing the point. We are all reinventing the wheel all the time, that's the problem. And sort just because one letter as FabianTDR mentioned. I'm seeking solution by asking other developers to join a sort of movement to change the Apple attitude. If everyone behaves like a sheep, then nothing will ever change and will continue wasting the most precious resource, time, on something totalky pointless.
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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Urs
u-he
24202 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:43 pm

Full Bucket wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:32 pm
Urs wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:21 pm
We've all been there. I don't think the move to notarisation and code signatures is such an event.
I may be wrong but I think it will have an impact on the freeware scene. At least I am carefully checking what the consequences would be for my own stuff. :shrug:

Cheers, Björn
It's 99$ a year. Everyone has to decide for themselves if keeping up development for macOS it's worth it. Surely, a fund raiser could make the difference?

The bigger impact might be felt in the open source scene as responsibilities may or may not apply, as in "who's gonna do this?".

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Urs
u-he
24202 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:52 pm

MeldaProduction wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:41 pm
Urs you are missing the point. We are all reinventing the wheel all the time, that's the problem. And sort just because one letter as FabianTDR mentioned. I'm seeking solution by asking other developers to join a sort of movement to change the Apple attitude. If everyone behaves like a sheep, then nothing will ever change and will continue wasting the most precious resource, time, on something totalky pointless.
It's certainly great to see that the tone is changing a bit towards the reasonable end of the spectrum. The outrage porn created in several threads here earlier has certainly not been constructive, and neither has the Apple bashing and involvement of people who have nothing of value to contribute.

I'm trying to find online resources and discussions about the whole issue of the closed system and the future impact that Angus is talking about. Unfortunately, so far this seems to be completely concentrated on a single audio forum. Maybe I'm too stupid to use search engines.

In any case, if you want to start a grassroots approach (unlike the astro-turfing that railed me up), I suggest to go somewhere near a larger pool of apple developers than the isolated niche of audio plug-in developers.

Angus_FX
KVRAF
4697 posts since 18 Jul, 2002 from London, UK

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:51 am

The bigger impact might be felt in the open source scene as responsibilities may or may not apply, as in "who's gonna do this?".
Locally built code (installed via command line package manager) is exempt. (For now.) Pre-built F/OSS binaries might be a problem.. equally though it's possible for package managers to clear the quarantine bit if they choose to.

Not sure how the whole entitlements-signing-hardened runtime-notarization piece is going to translate to POSIX-native applications (i.e. command-line programs originating from Unix world) - they don't know anything about security contexts, bookmarks or entitlements. Audio people won't be affected massively by this, as the use of POSIX tools is mostly limited to utilities and installers, but for developers it might be kind of disruptive.

It seems like at the moment these processes inherit the security rights of the parent Terminal session (unless you 'sudo' etc.), but that these can vary - I've seen anecdotal reports of things working in locally initiated Terminal sessions that won't work on remote builds triggered via ssh for example. Fair to say that the error logging/reporting on this part of the system has room for improvement.
ROLI | FXpansion
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ATS
KVRAF
6478 posts since 21 Dec, 2002 from MD USA

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:28 am

edit
my music: https://www.soundclick.com/alexcooper
The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls ~ Pablo Picasso

BlueprintInc
KVRist
98 posts since 9 Apr, 2017

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:02 am

Urs wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:36 pm
Typically developers make roughly 50% of their revenue from Mac users.
No sorry, 25-30% at max but with twice as much unique bug reports as on windows. And it is constantly dropping over the years. I think other devs stated similar numbers. In the audio world Mac is going to dissappear imo.

Markus Krause
KVRist
273 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:11 am

Confirmed.

Around 30% here. The number will drop further during the next years (especially pros with expensive hardware and dongle-users), because of downward compatibility problems. People are moving away from Logic to other hosts like Bitwig, Reaper or Cubase. They are all cross-platform. This makes it more easy to migrate to Windows for users.

More support requests from Apple users ('Logic can't find the plugin'), because Apple still ships their OS with a broken audiounit validation.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

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audiothing
KVRian
1382 posts since 13 Apr, 2011

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:33 am

Revenue is quite different from the user base though.

For us, it's 40% Mac users (survey from 2018).
But, revenue is more than 70% from Mac with 48% sessions Mac+iOS combined (Google Analytics for this year).

I don't really notice a major difference between Mac/PC support requests (other than the usual "restart your mac" since High Sierra), but I definitely do see more Pro Tools support requests, regardless of the OS.
AudioThing (VST, AU, AAX Plugins)
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Full Bucket
KVRian
637 posts since 25 May, 2010 from Hessisch Uganda, Germany

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:25 am

Urs wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:43 pm
Full Bucket wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:32 pm
Urs wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:21 pm
We've all been there. I don't think the move to notarisation and code signatures is such an event.
I may be wrong but I think it will have an impact on the freeware scene. At least I am carefully checking what the consequences would be for my own stuff. :shrug:

Cheers, Björn
It's 99$ a year. Everyone has to decide for themselves if keeping up development for macOS it's worth it. Surely, a fund raiser could make the difference?

The bigger impact might be felt in the open source scene as responsibilities may or may not apply, as in "who's gonna do this?".
It's not the money (thanks to generous donations) but the potential increase of workload (time is [my] money). We'll see...

Cheers Björn

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