Roli Seaboard RISE

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:15 pm

@Echoes in the Attic,
I completely understand that this is confusing you. No wonder if you do not know the difference between Pitch Bend and Pitch Bend Message.
Yes, that is due to the inability to perform proper Pitch Bend on a keyboard instrument, hence the confusion you've got.

Like I said above, assign your Aftertouch to a pitch bend MESSAGE (upward is more often used but it is your choice). Then you might get what is actually a Pitch bend and how it triggers Pitch Bend Message.
You will feel it... right under your fingers, I promise.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7314 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:29 pm

Pashkuli wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:15 pm
@Echoes in the Attic,
Like I said above, assign your Aftertouch to a pitch bend MESSAGE (upward is more often used but it is your choice). Then you might get what is actually a Pitch bend and how it triggers Pitch Bend Message.
You will feel it... right under your fingers, I promise.
Indeed, I read and responded to that post on the last page. It was truly the most hilarious and epic end to this argument you could have provided. That claim that aftertouch triggering pitch bend is real pitch bend did more to destroy this insane distinction you are trying to make than anything I could ever say. ;) So I will leave it at that. Case closed (In the most glorious way). At least you are polite!
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Look carefully, I said assigning Aftertouch to a Pitch Bend Message can (unfortunately) be only up or only down (as the pitch goes).
In terms of performance though... Yes, this is the proper way to perform a pitch bend on a keyboard instrument.
Pitch Slide is a different technique and will ever be a different technique, because as its name suggests, it requires to slide the finger!

If you'd like to use the Pitch Bend Wheel though, that is another third completely different technique to send Pitch Bend Message (data). Usually requires the involvement of another of your limbs.

The pitch is usually triggered by your key, pressed by your finger. That is your note/pitch (of that key button). Now bend the pitch with the key under the corresponding finger. Voila - you've performed a proper Pitch Bend (using the after-touch in this case to send the data as a Pitch Bend Message).

I hope it is more clear now.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7314 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:05 pm

Pashkuli wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:35 pm
....
I hope it is more clear now.
Yes truly enlightening. Like being on crazy meds or watching Monty Python.

Thank you for educating us on how the Roli Seaboard does not do pitch bend per note and what the true meaning of all these words are. I had no idea how wrong the midi specification and the rest of the world was about this subject. :lol:

Just to sum up for anyone late to the lesson:
-Roli Seaboard Rise does not do pitch bend per note
-Pitch bend from a pitch bend wheel is also not pitch bend
-You can do pitch bend by assigning aftertouch to pitch bend. Then it is pitch bend.

This made my day.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:31 pm

Do not worry, mate. It is not only you who does not know. We all learn.
I appreciate your sarcasm, but it is not going to help overcome the ignorance.

As I said, assigning Aftertouch to Pitch Bend Message is a limited solution (up or down, not both).

The only keyboard I know that does both ways (without the need of Aftertouch assigned) is my keyboard: Pashkuli Keyboard (4-note Pitch bend polyphony for now, but I do not think a single performer can do more than that successfully)

So to recap:
1. Make the difference between Pitch Bend, Pitch Slide - those are techniques to perform when playing
2. Pitch Wheel, Aftertouch Strip/Sensor, Velocity Receiver/Sensor, Mod Wheel - those are controllers/triggers
3. Pitch Bend Message, Note On/Off, Velocity Message, Modulation Message are data, that can be triggered by any controller/trigger (usually via MIDI Protocol, MIDI-MPE, MIDI 2.0, OSC, etc.)

Personally I think MIDI should be abandoned in favour of OSC, but let's leave it for another discussion. MIDI is old and had its time.

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
15305 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:50 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:40 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:11 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:03 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:51 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:43 am
I'm really curious to hear how pitch bend is different from pitch glide.
It's different in terms of performance. I really miss having a spring-loaded pitch-wheel now that I only use the Seaboard.
Yes of course. A pitch bend wheel feels different from a joystick, which feels different from an ARP Odyssey style pitch button, which feels different from a CS-80 ribbon, which feels different from a Seaboard, which feels different from a linnstrument. They send pitch bend data.
For me, it has nothing to do with the feel, and everything to do with the functionality. And I'm not just talking about the ability to send pitch-bend data :shrug:
What data are trying to send with these controllers using the pitch bend mechanism?
Specifically, the effect of a rapid return to default pitch when letting go of the wheel. I often used this effect when soloing to produce a similar effect to 'gargling' on a guitar's whammy bar arm. The technique allows for very light pitch 'flicks', often in rapid succession, due to not having to keep manually returning to default pitch.

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:01 pm

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:50 pm
Specifically, the effect of a rapid return to default pitch when letting go of the wheel. I often used this effect when soloing to produce a similar effect to 'gargling' on a guitar's whammy bar arm. The technique allows for very light pitch 'flicks', often in rapid succession, due to not having to keep manually returning to default pitch.
I assume you are talking about the so called 'cricket' effect (on guitar with the whammy bar slapped at the end). I guess it is somehow achievable on a keyboard with using the pitch wheel rapidly disturbed. Seems quite nice actually! That is a good tip.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7314 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:08 pm

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:50 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:40 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:11 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:03 pm
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:51 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:43 am
I'm really curious to hear how pitch bend is different from pitch glide.
It's different in terms of performance. I really miss having a spring-loaded pitch-wheel now that I only use the Seaboard.
Yes of course. A pitch bend wheel feels different from a joystick, which feels different from an ARP Odyssey style pitch button, which feels different from a CS-80 ribbon, which feels different from a Seaboard, which feels different from a linnstrument. They send pitch bend data.
For me, it has nothing to do with the feel, and everything to do with the functionality. And I'm not just talking about the ability to send pitch-bend data :shrug:
What data are trying to send with these controllers using the pitch bend mechanism?
Specifically, the effect of a rapid return to default pitch when letting go of the wheel. I often used this effect when soloing to produce a similar effect to 'gargling' on a guitar's whammy bar arm. The technique allows for very light pitch 'flicks', often in rapid succession, due to not having to keep manually returning to default pitch.
Yeah I get you, that's a limitation of pitch bend wheels. The strip on the Push isn't bad for that. My point was that it's the same message, just different input. "Feel" was the wrong word, as of course the mechanism will also dictate the performance possibilities. Ironically, MPE (when properly implemented) actually solves the issue you describe of being able to instantly return to a default pitch in solo/mono mode. This is why even though it was designed as a way to polyphonically express simultaneous notes in a different way, it's actually really useful in mono mode as well, since the expression is part of the note rather than via a separate modulator (be it a pitch wheel, strip or whatever) and new notes should have their own pitch bend value of none initially. So in mono mode when you cut off a previous note with a new note, that new note will have it's pitch initialized. New note, new expression, separate from the old note. Interestingly, there are few VSTs that actually handle this correctly. The FXpansion/Roli synths (Strobe, Cypher, Equator) as well as the Bitwig synths, are examples of this being handled correctly. Phonec and the Audio modeling instruments work correctly in mono with MPE. Most others have some kind of confusion between notes where it doesn't properly play at initial pitch if a previous, held note had been pitched, and things like that. I had been planning on bringing it up to Roger Linn and Roli as they were involved in the MPE spec and it seems like there may be guidance lacking when it comes to mono modes and MPE response implementation in software.
Last edited by Echoes in the Attic on Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7314 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:15 pm

Pashkuli wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:31 pm
So to recap:
1. Make the difference between Pitch Bend, Pitch Slide - those are techniques to perform when playing
For the last time, when we say "Pitch bend", we are talking about the pitch bend control signal, as per the midi spec. Not a "technique". You are using your own special terminology and thus essentially having a conversation with yourself. But thanks for the "help", but for the sake of everyone's sanity, please stop trying to "help" people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEhHEOIYgMY
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:28 pm

Well, if you think that by performing a Pitch Slide or Pitch Wheel Rotation and thus triggering a Pitch Bend Message, that makes you perform a Pitch Bend, this is simply ignorance.
And especially if you assign a Pitch Slide to trigger a Pitch Bend Message, that is fundamentally wrong.
A slide should trigger short legato notes in the span of the interval you got slid.
Pitch Wheel is more convenient and actually works as a total Pitch Bend for all notes played (very similar to what Whammy bar does on a guitar). Also requires two limbs (or gestures).

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
19000 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:57 pm

Man, what a Dunning-Krüger trainwreck.
Pashkuli wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:28 pm
And especially if you assign a Pitch Slide to trigger a Pitch Bend Message, that is fundamentally wrong.
No, it isn't wrong. It depends what you've learned to expect. There are fretless instruments where doing short legato notes would NOT be the right way to go, because their slide is CONTINUOUS, it is not interrupted with in-between notes.
Last edited by EvilDragon on Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7314 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:59 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:57 pm
Man, what a Dunning-Krüger trainwreck.
Dude! - I was honestly about to post this link for our enlightened teacher.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
19000 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:02 pm

Pashkuli wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:28 pm
And especially if you assign a Pitch Slide to trigger a Pitch Bend Message, that is fundamentally wrong.
Actually, it depends on how the pitch wheel is constructed - how strong the spring mechanism is. On some synths (i.e. Moog Sub 37, for example), you can do the whammy flutter effect in the same way as on the guitar - by quickly flicking the wheel up or down then immediately letting it go. It doesn't stop in the middle straight away, it has some inertia so it flutters around the middle until it calms down. It is brilliant, and you cannot do this on any other mechanism (apart from Nord's pitch stick).

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:09 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:57 pm
No, it isn't wrong. It depends what you've learned to expect. There are fretless instruments where doing short legato notes would NOT be the right way to go, because their slide is CONTINUOUS, it is not interrupted with in-between notes.
That is correct. Those instruments like violin, chello, bass, whistle have the glissando - a slide technique... you move the finger from one position to the next. Can you assign it as a Pitch Bend Message - of course you can (I think Roli uses Slide exactly this way). It is usually associated with portamento message.
Is it the same as Pitch Bend technique - of course it is not.

User avatar
Pashkuli
KVRist
155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:25 pm

To be more specific and as a quick reference to Roli Seaboard and its feature we discuss in this topic:
When you slide across the bumpy surface - trigger a legato slide (short legato notes)
When you trigger a slide front or back flat areas, trigger either Pitch Bend Message (not correct with respect to the technique with the same name) or Portamento.
Now, the challenge to the developers is to see if they can implement it that way... because i think they can't, because it is a linear grid instrument.
Would be good to see a demo from Seaboard owners though. I sold mine long time ago.

Return to “Hardware (Instruments and Effects)”