can you change the key of a specific chord?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
Caine123
KVRAF
6155 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:41 am

hey guys i just get through this course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud9CpGOG1GE
and it is awesome so far! major and minor chords are so easy, ok not on the fly ;D but i know how to generate them. but e.g. i wanna use

E Major scale for a techno track. DO I HAVE to start the song with the note E? e.g. the bass has to start bit E?

stupid question i guess but cant i use ANY note in the scale to start?
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Etienne1973
KVRian
548 posts since 8 Feb, 2013 from Switzerland

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:17 am

Caine123 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:41 am
DO I HAVE to start the song with the note E?
You can start with the E note if the E note is part of the chord notes. But you don't have to.

E.g. if chord progression starts with an E major triad chord then you can also start the melody with G# note or B note.

Further you can start melody with any scale note if it's a short approach note which leads to an E, G# or B note.

Caine123 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:41 am
e.g. the bass has to start bit E?
If the chord progression starts with an E chord then bass (riff) starts usually with the route note of the E chord.

Caine123
KVRAF
6155 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:28 am

thx a lot for your reply, sorry i dont understand it well yet still a noob in theory! (imagine the song is ONLY this scale, no chord progression)

E Major consists of
E, F♯, G♯, A, B, C♯, and D♯

does it matter if i stard with B then G# and A for bass, or B then E then G#? just staying in the scale? or is it aa rule to start with E then start the next notes?
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jancivil
KVRAF
19370 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:45 am

there is no rule, the question is what is your idea
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Forgotten
KVRAF
7564 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:43 am

E Major scale would suggest that you start with a note from that scale, but there are so many other things that would need to be considered. Looking at one note on one instrument is not enough to go on.

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jancivil
KVRAF
19370 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:52 am

Do you have an idea, a tune or melodic thing in the key of E major? Start with what you're hearing. If you're not hearing anything, what do you want to happen? There is no recipe for all cakes. What is it you want to make?

The question in the topic title is another matter. I can say this: 'the key of a specific chord' is a decision of key first.
A C major chord is I of C major; it is IV of G major; it is III of A minor... The meaning of key is a grammar. Changing the key of a chord in itself, this isn't a thing, if there is key a chord has a relationship to it.
This 'can you', you can do whatever it is you want to do; you want a cogent understanding under you first.
Right now we get a kind of haphazard try at using the terms.
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Stamped Records
KVRist
294 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:43 pm

All notes of the scale are available to you for every instrument, but there are a few helpful principles.

At the moment that your chord hits, your accompanying instruments should be hitting a note of that chord. In theory and in practise, all instruments can do whatever they want between chords, but if you are using a chord in the truest sense, the notes of the chord are your sweet spots.

While the chord is playing, your instruments are free to do as they wish, but in a melody, the ear hears the notes of the chord as 'completing' or 'closing' an idea. So a melody steps away from and back to a note of the current chord, over and over and over again, even if you aren't aware that it's doing it. So the trick is to become aware of it and do it on purpose.

I highly recommend using a midi keyboard for learning, right from the very beginning. Music is 'played'. If you are using a midi keyboard, it is good practise to visualise your chord across the entire keyboard. So, if you are using an E chord in this instance, that means all E notes, G# notes and B notes across the entire keyboard, is your chord. Any instrument you use (melody or bass etc.) relates to your current chord by using the notes of the chord.

When you get to grips with simple triads, you might extend - add notes to - the chord using your bass or melody. What you will hear when you play around like this with simple triads is not the full colour of music but it is a really good suggestion of what can be done.

Melody is actually really simple but it does help to be aware of how your melody relates to your current chord. That way, you can do what's expected, or, do something that's not expected. In both cases, knowing what's expected in the first place, is going to help you a lot.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
7564 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:32 pm

Stamped Records wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:43 pm
At the moment that your chord hits, your accompanying instruments should be hitting a note of that chord. In theory and in practise, all instruments can do whatever they want between chords, but if you are using a chord in the truest sense, the notes of the chord are your sweet spots.

So, if you are using an E chord in this instance, that means all E notes, G# notes and B notes across the entire keyboard, is your chord. Any instrument you use (melody or bass etc.) relates to your current chord by using the notes of the chord.
Those statements aren’t entirely accurate - a chord played on one instrument capable of polyphony does not dictate which notes should be played on another instrument. The vertical notes played on additional instruments are also notes in that same chord, and they certainly don’t need to be the same notes.

Also, if you are following Western compositional theory, single notes that fall between chords cannot do whatever they want - they can be accidentals, or modulation could dictate which notes follow a particular chord. You can of course use chromatic notes if your melody dictates, but your accompaniment should reflect that.

Stamped Records
KVRist
294 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:27 pm

What I suggested was a practical exercise, not the way it should always be. Restriction based learning keeps things simple, it's a way to hear how music works without overly complicating things.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
7564 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:05 pm

Stamped Records wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:27 pm
What I suggested was a practical exercise, not the way it should always be. Restriction based learning keeps things simple, it's a way to hear how music works without overly complicating things.
It’s also a way to misrepresent theory if you provide an incomplete picture. I get what you’re saying, but it runs the risk of miseducating someone.

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jancivil
KVRAF
19370 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:23 pm

:lol:

At the moment that your chord hits, your accompanying instruments should be hitting a note of that chord.

Because 'here is a chord now', every non-member of said chord is a violation in this supposed moment; ie., a chord is inviolate because it's a chord.

:idiot:

This is NOT "how music works"; this is NOT any exercise, this is a meaningless assertion out of your imagination. People who create music that's interesting or, you know, *worth* have_actual_ideas. There is no such rule, no one legit teaches shit which looks like this. "should be" and some bullshit rule appears. I'd say maybe lay off the weed or coke or whatever for significant portions of the day or something. But you're not the teacher here, believe that.
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jancivil
KVRAF
19370 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:29 pm

"relates to your current chord by using the notes of the chord."
Or the notes relate to it as a dissonance.

Whole songs are built from strong beat dissonances: top of my head, Cause We've Ended as Lovers by Stevie Wonder.
9-8 resolution on i; #11-10 res on bVI^; 6-5 on iv, etc. When the chord hits, there_is a non-chord tone moves down to join the chord, every change thru the verse. The final one in the sequence is a 4-3 sus/resolve on I.

Draw inferences and principles from things which happen, be real, feet planted on earth for now. Creating fake rules is not helping.
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Michael L
KVRAF
3000 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:01 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:45 am
there is no rule, the question is what is your idea
I find this simple starting point missing from many 'music theory' discussions.
It makes all the difference between an internal (you) vs. external (someone else) locus of control.
:shrug:
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Bb

Caine123
KVRAF
6155 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:00 am

Thx so mich need to review these replies in my future harmony workshop. Cause i need some real person in real life i experienced cause this is still too complicated for me when i read.

So far i learned some chords and stayed in 1 key and it worked so far! Still i think i miss something cause it sounds too boring with less emotional movement.
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Rad Grandad
30287 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: can you change the key of a specific chord?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:45 am

apologies Caine123 for the temp lock, this thread is not about any member so I hope the hint gets taken (a lot of posts gone)...any ot posts, any name calling, it's deleted and there could be further action. This going on in one thread is bad enough, but carrying it over to two is just completely out of line.
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