Behringer VSTs

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"expert" you forgot that IT costs are high and you also have to maintain software with updates for upcoming years.
No. IT salaries can be high, as overall company cost of ownership is minimal. You can just put these 5 guys in a single office room and give them laptops, or contract them remotely. You don't need to set up a large manufacturing site somewhere in the woods, together with logistics, distribution and of course material cost itself. And dozens of staff to operate it all.
you also have to maintain software with updates for upcoming years.
No, you don't :D. Many companies just show middle finger to customers, and after few years developers are gone. Don't you see any complains about unsupported products here on KVR?..

Yes, if you are going to do it properly and permanently, then it's gonna be expensive. That's why most of companies do not, they exist for a few years and they vanish, as developers move to more attractive offers.
Just alone having like 5 good skilled coders can cost you 40 000 per month without taxes. If your research and development takes 1-4 years, run the calculations how much for the company that would cost.
These estimations are pulled out of thin air. Many plugin "companies" are in fact one-man business, that's because it's just not a profitable market.

Also it's not like anybody is setting a startup today, hires 5 devs instantly to develop "state-of-art synth" out of nothing and just waits for profit.
Last edited by DJ Warmonger on Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Well, it's simple really. Hire an employee for developing a plug. Plug is developed, bugs are called, what are you going to do with that employee? You can't just fire them, because that will your new company immediately give a bad name as it comes to employment. It's not that easy, many soldiers were fired along the way.

So yeah NI devved all this stuff over the years, then they had to fire 200 people.

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DJ Warmonger wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:41 pm
AnX wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:11 pm
Chapelle wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:57 pm "We at Behringer do not believe in “virtual analog”, VST’s or other creative names for digital sound emulations as we are of the firm opinion that you cannot replicate true analog sound through digital technology, and there are many technical reasons for this. To be very clear, this doesn’t mean digital synths or VST’s can't sound great, but it is just something we don’t believe in."
- Uli Behringer, January 2018 (source: gearslutz.com)
maybe their VSTs won't be virtual analogue, still lots of options
This. Behringer has built a number of analog recreations, but fully-blown digital synths are still on the table. I mean, how many times can you route saw and square through low-pass filter and sell it as a new product? There are many FM, additive, granular and completely-weird ass synths left and they come only in digital domain.
Of course he would say that. Claiming that a competing $100 plug-in can sound just as good as your $300 hardware clone wouldn't make sense when you're in the business of selling hardware clones.
The DeepMind does have a very complete FX section however, and they also do digital mixers with effects, so they are no strangers to digital signal processing and coding.

However I just don't see the need for Behringer VST's. The market is already completely saturated, and developers are in a cut-throat price war with prices reaching new lows every year. Personally I prefer smaller boutique developers who support their products for decades, rather than some contracted developer in China who codes the plugin in a few weeks and then disappears. With hardware, that's less of an issue since your warranty only lasts ~3 years (after which you either have to fix it yourself or have a third party shop fix it for you), and you don't expect or need a constant stream of updates to maintain compatibility.

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fese wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:44 pm So I am not sure where Behringer would fit in there. Plugins for $5? Instruments for 20?
This has already been happening on the iOS land recently.
Works at KV331 Audio
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kv331 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:40 pm
fese wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:44 pm So I am not sure where Behringer would fit in there. Plugins for $5? Instruments for 20?
This has already been happening on the iOS land recently.
But does that bring enough profit? Not sure. Behringer iOS apps would be a dollar then.
The markets might be different but at the end the developers choose to gift these apps away and at the same time i feel a downgrade in value from my VST/AU. Might be just a border in my brain but it is indeed hard to pull out 100 if i get the same for 10....
Maybe no one will buy an app for 20 dollar or more but not sure if developers go for mass market instead of less but willing more to pay crowd in what is better in the long term. For me many developers shoot themselves in the foot here. Of course just my opinion.

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Forgotten wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 pm Not arbitrary - they must have had confidence in them or they wouldn’t have made those dates public.
why?

why "must" they have had confidence in those dates? you are assuming they were being truthful with the dates in the first place, when more likely they just threw dates out to shut everybody up for a few months. they only give dates at all because they are hounded to do so. so they pick a date they think might be close to the actual date and then just adjust the date as it nears.

your theory of missed release dates = problems with production/issues with the company doesnt hold water at all. the 2 things are not necessarily related and more often than not arent related at all. there are thousands of reasons why a release date might be "missed" that have nothing to do with production at all. the most probable reason is that it wasnt a real release date in the first place.
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chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:58 pm
Forgotten wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 pm Not arbitrary - they must have had confidence in them or they wouldn’t have made those dates public.
why?

why "must" they have had confidence in those dates?
Because it makes no business sense to publicize random dates.

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AdvancedFollower wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:38 am The market is already completely saturated...
No.

In wavetable synths and many pure software digital creation which are not emulations of hardware devices, you're perhaps right... and I'm even not sure of that because it is probable that many new ideas may come even in new kinds of synthesis derived from the wavetables.

And in emulations of old legendary vintage hardware devices, there are still lots and lots of legendary models which could be emulated.
  • There is room for emulations of other ARP models (a 2500, a really good 2600, an Omni MKII, a Pro-Soloist, a Pro/DGX, a Quadra).
  • There is room for emulations of Buchla models (Touché, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of other Clavia models (Nord Lead 3 and Nord Modular, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of Crumar models (Multiman-S, Performer, Spirit, and Stratus, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of E-Mu models (Mo'Phatt, Orbit, PK-6 Proteus, Planet (Earth and Phatt), for example, and the extremely complex Morpheus).
  • There is room for an emulation of the EDP Wasp (only NuSofting made one, but long long ago).
  • There is room for emulations of other Elka models (Rhapsody 490, Rhapsody 610, and EK-22 and EK-44, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of Ensoniq models (ESQ-1, KT-88, SD-1, SQ-80, I recall you that SQ8L has never been finished nor ported to 64-bit nor to OSX).
  • There is room for emulations Farfisa models (Syntorchestra, Soundmaker, Polychrome, M200).
  • There is room for emulations of Kawaï models (110F, K1, K5, SX-240).
  • There is room for emulations of other Korg models (Lambda ES50, Trident, MS-50, DS-8, DW-8000, Poly-61, Poly-800, MS2000).
  • There is room for emulations of Kurzweil models (K2000, K2500).
  • There is room for an emulation of the Logan String Melody II.
  • There is room for emulations of other Moog models (Opus-3, Sonic Six, Source, Taurus, Voyager...).
  • There is room for emulations of Novation models (Nova II, Supernova).
  • There is room for emulations of Quasimidi models (PolyMorph, Sirius).
  • There is room for emulations of Rhodes models (Chroma and Chroma Polaris).
  • There is room for emulations of many other awesome Roland models (RS-202, RS-505, SH-09, SH-5, SH-7, System-100, JX-10, Source, Taurus, Voyager).
  • There is room for emulations of other SCI models (MultiTrak, Prophet T8, Prophet VS).
  • There is room for an emulation of the Synton Syrinx.
  • There is room for emulations of many other Yamaha models (GX-1, CS-10, CS-15, CS-20, CS-30, SY20, DX1, DX11/TX81Z, RX5, SY-77, FS1R).
And so many other...

And there are requests and ideas for emulations of many of these gems of the past, here at KVR but also at Gearslutz, at Audiofanzine, at Rekkerd, at SoundOnSound, at MusicRadar, at MusicTech, on the Korg forums, at Synthtopia, etc.

So no, the market is not at all saturated. Neither in new pure software creations nor in emulations of vintage legendary keyboards.

There is a room for Behringer as well as for any other brand who would want to come in the software synth world. Their challenge is not in the choice of what to do... but in the best ideas to make a place for oneself among the others, and without destroying the diversity. The good market is not a market where every brand wants to be hegemonic and kill the other brands, a good market is a market where there are many brands in order to let the customers have the widest choice. It means that it is necessary to welcome the new comers who want to take a seat around the table, whoever they are, totally new or already known in other markets. And if we see accurately the market of the software emulations, we see that except some rare top notch legendary synths as the Minimoog and some rare others of these kind, a great number of the vintage emulations are made by only one or two developers at maximum. And as we saw above, there are tons of other legendary vintage synths which afford to be emulated.

Some people have today the stunning impression (and they claim) that everything has been done, in music hardware devices and in software plugins as well as in styles of music and in R&D or in general hobbies, in science, in the management of the society, etc. We can easily remind that in the XIXth Century many scientists and engineers as well as many politicians already thought exactly the same. Two centuries ago !

Too many people have the habit to think only with their own sight, as if their sentiment of exhaustiveness were shared by everybody, so forgetting that the world is made of a huge diversity in styles, in ages of musicians, in minds, in creativity, in wishes, in tastes, etc... or thinking that all the world think as them.

If everybody thought always as one think, so yes the world would be extremely overloaded (and extremely sad), and not only about devices. Fortunately it is not at all the case.

There is a future for everything, for the nostalgics of the past who would like to keep on playing their teenage beloved styles with emulations of the synths they couldn't afford decades ago... as well as for the young (and not all so young) creators who will always have new awesome ideas to keep active the creativity of the human brain !
Last edited by BlackWinny on Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
I'm now severely diseased since September 2018.

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Update: Bax NL sold 3x K-2 last 24 hours.

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BlackWinny wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:11 pm
AdvancedFollower wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:38 am The market is already completely saturated...
No.

In wavetable synths and many pure software digital creation which are not emulations of hardware devices, you're perhaps right... and I'm even not sure of that because it is probable that many new ideas may come even in new kinds of synthesis derived from the wavetables.

And in emulations of old legendary vintage hardware devices, there are still lots and lots of legendary models which could be emulated.
  • There is room for emulations of other ARP models (a 2500, a really good 2600, an Omni MKII, a Pro-Soloist, a Pro/DGX, a Quadra).
  • There is room for emulations of Buchla models (Touché, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of other Clavia models (Nord Lead 3 and Nord Modular, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of Crumar models (Multiman-S, Performer, Spirit, and Stratus, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of E-Mu models (Mo'Phatt, Orbit, PK-6 Proteus, Planet (Earth and Phatt), for example, and the extremely complex Morpheus).
  • There is room for an emulation of the EDP Wasp (only NuSofting made one, but long long ago).
  • There is room for emulations of other Eka models (Rhapsody 490, Rhapsody 610, and EK-22 and EK-44, for example).
  • There is room for emulations of Ensoniq models (ESQ-1, KT-88, SD-1, SQ-80, I recall you that SQ8L has never been finished nor ported to 64-bit nor to OSX).
  • There is room for emulations Farfisa models (Syntorchestra, Soundmaker, Polychrome, M200).
  • There is room for emulations of Kawaï models (110F, K1, K5, SX-240).
  • There is room for emulations of other Korg models (Lambda ES50, Trident, MS-50, DS-8, DW-8000, Poly-61, Poly-800, MS2000).
  • There is room for emulations of Kurzweil models (K2000, K2500).
  • There is room for an emulation of the Logan String Melody II.
  • There is room for emulations of other Moog models (Opus-3, Sonic Six, Source, Taurus, Voyager...).
  • There is room for emulations of Novation models (Nova II, Supernova).
  • There is room for emulations of Quasimidi models (PolyMorph, Sirius).
  • There is room for emulations of Rhodes models (Chroma and Chroma Polaris).
  • There is room for emulations of many other awesome Roland models (RS-202, RS-505, SH-09, SH-5, SH-7, System-100, JX-10, Source, Taurus, Voyager).
  • There is room for emulations of other SCI models (MultiTrak, Prophet T8, Prophet VS).
  • There is room for an emulation of the Synton Syrinx.
  • There is room for emulations of many other Yamaha models (GX-1, CS-10, CS-15, CS-20, CS-30, SY20, DX1, DX11/TX81Z, RX5, SY-77, FS1R).
And so many other...

And there are requests and ideas for emulations of many of these gems of the past, here at KVR but also at Gearslutz, at Audiofanzine, at Rekkerd, at SoundOnSound, at MusicRadar, at MusicTech, on the Korg forums, at Synthtopia, etc.

So no, the market is not at all saturated. Neither in new pure software creations nor in emulations of vintage legendary keyboards.

There is a room for Behringer as well as for any other brand who would want to come in the software synth world. Their challenge is not in the choice of what to do... but in the best ideas to make a place for oneself among the others, and without destroying the diversity. The good market is not a market where every brand wants to be hegemonic and kill the other brands, a good market is a market where there are many brands in order to let the customers have the widest choice. It means that it is necessary to welcome the new comers who want to take a seat around the table, whoever they are, totally new or already known in other markets. And if we see accurately the market of the software emulations, we see that except some rare top notch legendary synths as the Minimoog and some rare others of these kind, a great number of the vintage emulations are made by only one or two developers at maximum. And as we saw above, there are tons of other legendary vintage synths which afford to be emulated.

Some people have today the stunning impression (and they claim) that everything has been done, in music hardware devices and in software plugins as well as in styles of music and in R&D or in general hobbies, in science, in the management of the society, etc. We can easily remind that in the XIXth Century many scientists and engineers as well as many politicians already thought exactly the same. Two centuries ago !

Too many people have the habit to think only with their own sight, as if their sentiment of exhaustiveness were shared by everybody, so forgetting that the world is made of a huge diversity in styles, in ages of musicians, in minds, in creativity, in wishes, in tastes, etc... or thinking that all the world think as them.

If everybody thought always as one think, so yes the world would be extremely overloaded (and extremely sad), and not only about devices. Fortunately it is not at all the case.

There is a future for everything, for the nostalgics of the past who would like to keep on playing their teenage beloved styles with emulations of the synths they couldn't afford decades ago... as well as for the young (and not all so young) creators who will always have new awesome ideas to keep active the creativity of the human brain !
Well the fact is, instruments are aimed at musicians, not horders, so interest in those legendary devices still is quite small, i think at least compared to something modern like Serum, Sylenth1, Dune 3. You can imagine how small interest is (and im sure it will be even smaller with upcoming years) in the new generation of producers, kids. Also having so much plugins alone just distracts from making music really.

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Forgotten wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:14 pm
chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:58 pm
Forgotten wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 pm Not arbitrary - they must have had confidence in them or they wouldn’t have made those dates public.
why?

why "must" they have had confidence in those dates?
Because it makes no business sense to publicize random dates.
ive gone over this 3 times now i think. you keep ignoring the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, forced to give a date before they can reasonably know what its going to be.

and you haven't made any case at all connecting your "missed dates" to actual problems with production or the company as a whole...which was your initial assertion.
Last edited by chaosWyrM on Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:48 pm
Forgotten wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:14 pm
chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:58 pm
Forgotten wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 pm Not arbitrary - they must have had confidence in them or they wouldn’t have made those dates public.
why?

why "must" they have had confidence in those dates?
Because it makes no business sense to publicize random dates.
ive gone over this 3 times now i think. you keep ignoring the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, forced to give a date before they can reasonably know what its going to be.
Who is your contact at Behringer who has confirmed this for you?

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Forgotten wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:50 pm
chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:48 pm
Forgotten wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:14 pm
chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:58 pm
Forgotten wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 pm Not arbitrary - they must have had confidence in them or they wouldn’t have made those dates public.
why?

why "must" they have had confidence in those dates?
Because it makes no business sense to publicize random dates.
ive gone over this 3 times now i think. you keep ignoring the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, forced to give a date before they can reasonably know what its going to be.
Who is your contact at Behringer who has confirmed this for you?
whos yours?
ImageImageImage

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chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:51 pm
Forgotten wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:50 pm
chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:48 pm
Forgotten wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:14 pm
chaosWyrM wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:58 pm
Forgotten wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 pm Not arbitrary - they must have had confidence in them or they wouldn’t have made those dates public.
why?

why "must" they have had confidence in those dates?
Because it makes no business sense to publicize random dates.
ive gone over this 3 times now i think. you keep ignoring the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, forced to give a date before they can reasonably know what its going to be.
Who is your contact at Behringer who has confirmed this for you?
whos yours?
Do you always answer a question with a question?

Post

Bax NL also sold a VC340, to my great surprize ;)

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