People made a purchase decision based on announcements made by the developer which he then reverted after the fact. Cut this "entitlement" and "cheapskates" crap. (Potential) customers were lied to, it's easy as that. How can you defend this?FapFilter wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:10 am Well, at least in this thread there seem to be more ‘self entitled ramblings‘ on the ‘cheapskates‘ side than on the one of the existing userbase.
Available now: Tone2 Icarus2.5 - Wavetable Workstation
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- KVRAF
- 1924 posts since 15 Oct, 2008 from Germany
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- KVRAF
- 2982 posts since 9 Dec, 2008
Nobody's complaining bout the prices, complete straw man.dune_rave wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:35 am One question: who creates the prices: users or developers? Stop whining about it!did you see people posting angry letters to moog or to yamaha to lower their instrument prices just for some user?
point 2: instruments cost money, you have to agree with this. its not an excuse that you're poor.
Folks are complaining about something that from the Dev's point of view is righting a wrong, and for the Best Service customers point of view might look like bait and switch.
Stop dumbing it down to greed.
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- KVRAF
- 1524 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8
That's why i put those terms into quotation marks (ok, apostrophes actually 
)
Of course those are overexagerated terms, but the gist is generally there imo.
And it's not that the moan posts don't at least appear to be overexagerated (to me at least) aswell. Maybe they aren't even actually meant this severe - it's hard to actually know just from text.
I have to withdraw my initial conclusion that it's mostly coming from one side though... there seem to be more ‘envious‘ people than i thought
)Of course those are overexagerated terms, but the gist is generally there imo.
And it's not that the moan posts don't at least appear to be overexagerated (to me at least) aswell. Maybe they aren't even actually meant this severe - it's hard to actually know just from text.
I have to withdraw my initial conclusion that it's mostly coming from one side though... there seem to be more ‘envious‘ people than i thought
The GAS is always greener on the other side!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1752 posts since 2 Jul, 2018
I have noted your feedback and did explain the situation for several times now. I did not agree on the sale from best Service for Icarus. All i can do is damage control now. I am aware that it is impossible to do it right for everyone
Please do also note that Icarus2 will be the final synth that i will release. After this one there will be onl free updates and soundsets.
I got serious health problems and need to take medication. I need more time to relax and need more time for my family. That's why i can not longer deal with frequently toxic communities like on kvr.
Thank you for your understanding
Please do also note that Icarus2 will be the final synth that i will release. After this one there will be onl free updates and soundsets.
I got serious health problems and need to take medication. I need more time to relax and need more time for my family. That's why i can not longer deal with frequently toxic communities like on kvr.
Thank you for your understanding
https://www.tone2.com
Our award-winning synthesizers offer true high-end sound quality.
Our award-winning synthesizers offer true high-end sound quality.
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- KVRer
- 25 posts since 16 May, 2016
Forgive me my friend, but, "I did not agree on the sale", is not a valid excuse. It's your job to be aware of the price from vendors. It is not respectful to take back your word, no matter what excuse. This is business. The damage is already done but the damage control is actually honoring your word and taking the hit of the reduced price, not somehow trying to recoup more money from those who bought the discount. It sucks, its a bummer, its a learning experience, but it should NOT be your customers problem.
Hmm, but there are circumstances aside from this that are much more important, my friend. I don't want to give you a hard time, but share some tough love maybe, advice even if painful to read.
Health is more important than this sh**, so is family. Take it easy, as much as you can.
Hmm, but there are circumstances aside from this that are much more important, my friend. I don't want to give you a hard time, but share some tough love maybe, advice even if painful to read.
Health is more important than this sh**, so is family. Take it easy, as much as you can.
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- KVRist
- 345 posts since 4 Dec, 2004 from The Netherlands
Yeah, 'the moan posts'. Why bother with details, right?FapFilter wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:46 am
And it's not that the moan posts don't at least appear to be overexagerated (to me at least) aswell.
Meanwhile I have contacted Best Service, asking them if they are willing to refund the money I paid for Icarus 1 (as, as I pointed out in an earlier message, Icarus 1 has a too small GUI for me and the purchase decision was entirely based on Tone2's promise that I would get a free upgrade to Icarus 2, to be released in a couple of days). I've also made clear to Best Service that I'm perfectly aware of the fact that they don't have any legal obligation to refund the money. I have never had any troubles with them and I won't hold it in any way against them if they are not willing to refund.
In that case I will attain a wait and see approach, until Icarus 2 has been released. If mister Krause stays at his decision to not honor the unambiguous promise he made, then this will not be the end of it.
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- KVRian
- 523 posts since 19 Jun, 2016
Interesting how people who "had no interest whatsoever in a synth [not perfect quote]" all of a sudden "tought this synth was really interesting and desirable [not even a quote]"
Anyway, just moving on past all the other stuff wich some have a degree of reason but so do others.....
.. if you really want to think about it i'll leave a few sentences
1 - "try to put yourself in somebody else shoes.[yes, in Bold]"
2 - name developers who have created this many quality instruments nearly by themselves...
[take now in consideration the guy who typed, this is the diference between professionals and hobbyists or soemthing like that] - Go back to N-1
just an opinion, Typing something like that sure is easier then creating multiple quality instruments + FX + all the other work involved........ (just an opinion though)
3 - It really is sad that many developers, i can recall Linplug; just end up thinking it's better to just apply their drive, aptitude and hard work on something else.
4 - Like some people said way earlier on this topic;
A thank you for being able to use such instruments
....*EDIT * whatever your choice and decision is
Anyway, just moving on past all the other stuff wich some have a degree of reason but so do others.....
.. if you really want to think about it i'll leave a few sentences
1 - "try to put yourself in somebody else shoes.[yes, in Bold]"
2 - name developers who have created this many quality instruments nearly by themselves...
[take now in consideration the guy who typed, this is the diference between professionals and hobbyists or soemthing like that] - Go back to N-1
just an opinion, Typing something like that sure is easier then creating multiple quality instruments + FX + all the other work involved........ (just an opinion though)
3 - It really is sad that many developers, i can recall Linplug; just end up thinking it's better to just apply their drive, aptitude and hard work on something else.
4 - Like some people said way earlier on this topic;
A thank you for being able to use such instruments
....*EDIT * whatever your choice and decision is
Last edited by tasty tatsyn on Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 2623 posts since 20 Oct, 2014
I don't think I was toxic or so, I always tried to formulate my posts in here gentle and positive. Also I understand that you have health issues and I am sorry for that, but I also cannot see I relation to this thread.
But I want to bring a point here straight:
The nature of a sale is that a product gets a lot cheaper over a short time. This is done at black friday, for instance. Everybody can wait for such a regular sale, and then "benefit" from this, if a vendor takes part. The disadvantage of a sale is that you have to wait for it/the product. If you do not want that, you can always pay the regular price and then get the product immediately. That's why it is more expensive, this is the additional value. So I think the posts here by some people complaining they paid more than the people using the sale are pretty unfair und driven by envy (which I think is never a good adviser). You guys had the synth already before, also you could have waited, too. Sales are very normal in capitalism. Regarding the update price not being lowered (for a single day or so), you should have addressed Markus, not the other customers.
I also thought that the idea of a sale for the seller is, that you might (drastically) lower your prices for a short time, but you also get a lot of new customers in return. And since it is very time limited, and also free to choose (you yourself made the contract with Best Service), I also do not understand why this should be an economical issue. A price of a product always is relative and very subjective. You expect 199 EUR and it is for sure worth this money. But other people also consider the purchase relative to their own situation: Can I afford this product? Will I use it often? What is it worth for me, what can I pay? Now you try to force the people who were not willing to pay the full price to actually pay the full price. And you told me personally, the update will be free. I think such movement actually produces toxicity/frustration. I understand though that it makes no sense for you if you do not want to bring on payable updates anymore.
Ok, I will get over it. I only hoped for that more streamlined GUI of v2. I try now to enjoy Icarus 1.6, it is a great synth indeed and I always loved your skills regarding CPU optimization. Such a brillant sound, too.
But I want to bring a point here straight:
The nature of a sale is that a product gets a lot cheaper over a short time. This is done at black friday, for instance. Everybody can wait for such a regular sale, and then "benefit" from this, if a vendor takes part. The disadvantage of a sale is that you have to wait for it/the product. If you do not want that, you can always pay the regular price and then get the product immediately. That's why it is more expensive, this is the additional value. So I think the posts here by some people complaining they paid more than the people using the sale are pretty unfair und driven by envy (which I think is never a good adviser). You guys had the synth already before, also you could have waited, too. Sales are very normal in capitalism. Regarding the update price not being lowered (for a single day or so), you should have addressed Markus, not the other customers.
I also thought that the idea of a sale for the seller is, that you might (drastically) lower your prices for a short time, but you also get a lot of new customers in return. And since it is very time limited, and also free to choose (you yourself made the contract with Best Service), I also do not understand why this should be an economical issue. A price of a product always is relative and very subjective. You expect 199 EUR and it is for sure worth this money. But other people also consider the purchase relative to their own situation: Can I afford this product? Will I use it often? What is it worth for me, what can I pay? Now you try to force the people who were not willing to pay the full price to actually pay the full price. And you told me personally, the update will be free. I think such movement actually produces toxicity/frustration. I understand though that it makes no sense for you if you do not want to bring on payable updates anymore.
Ok, I will get over it. I only hoped for that more streamlined GUI of v2. I try now to enjoy Icarus 1.6, it is a great synth indeed and I always loved your skills regarding CPU optimization. Such a brillant sound, too.
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- KVRian
- 829 posts since 14 Sep, 2017
Markus just try to see between the smokes.
No everyone in kvr is toxic, people here have concerns about the future of tone2 and would like to see the best from this company, I said already in my previous post please don't do this move, it will piss off a lot of users and they weren't aware of any of that, they decided to buy Icarus keeping in mind what you already said.
You can't/shouldn't change the rules all of a suden if they got that deal, best services is just a reseller the same as jrrshop, thomann and others; they decided to sell it for cheaper this black friday because they can as many other deals, let me say that they are not bad neither because they don't know if it is wrong or right, the people who got Icarus for that deal are not wrong neither because is not their fault, those tone2 deals have been present during years and years trough resellers. If you want to change the rules, try to do it after the release of Icarus 2, don't do it now, honor your own word, all this in good will.
I personally don't care if during the time I got Icarus I had to pay more, if someone had a better deal, why would I feel bad? let them enjoy, is not unfair If I paid more, there is a black friday, they got a better deal, they did it for Icarus 2, no problem, new users, that's it.
No everyone in kvr is toxic, people here have concerns about the future of tone2 and would like to see the best from this company, I said already in my previous post please don't do this move, it will piss off a lot of users and they weren't aware of any of that, they decided to buy Icarus keeping in mind what you already said.
You can't/shouldn't change the rules all of a suden if they got that deal, best services is just a reseller the same as jrrshop, thomann and others; they decided to sell it for cheaper this black friday because they can as many other deals, let me say that they are not bad neither because they don't know if it is wrong or right, the people who got Icarus for that deal are not wrong neither because is not their fault, those tone2 deals have been present during years and years trough resellers. If you want to change the rules, try to do it after the release of Icarus 2, don't do it now, honor your own word, all this in good will.
I personally don't care if during the time I got Icarus I had to pay more, if someone had a better deal, why would I feel bad? let them enjoy, is not unfair If I paid more, there is a black friday, they got a better deal, they did it for Icarus 2, no problem, new users, that's it.
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- KVRian
- 523 posts since 19 Jun, 2016
*Coffee break!
.... a coffee or tea... and a nice croissant or something, it's cold!
.... a coffee or tea... and a nice croissant or something, it's cold!
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- KVRist
- 345 posts since 4 Dec, 2004 from The Netherlands
Well, in fact, I he wants to solve the mess he created and do the just (and legally correct) thing, he doesn't even have to wait until after the release of Icarus 2. He just has to adopt, and publicly state, a policy like this:JunSev wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:03 am If you want to change the rules, try to do it after the release of Icarus 2, don't do it now, honor your own word, all this in good will.
1. People who bought Icarus 1 from the moment Tone2 announced that the upgrade to Icarus 2 will be free for those customers, will get a free upgrade to Icarus 2.
2. From now on the policy will be that only those people who buy Icarus 1 at the Tone2 store, or who buy at a 3th party reseller for a price that is at least equal to the price in the Tone2 store, will get a free upgrade to Icarus 2.
Problem solved. People who bought Icarus discounted at a 3th party reseller, on the promise of the free upgrade, won't feel (and have not been) ripped off. And people who think it's unfair they paid more than the Black Friday shoppers still get a kind of 'reparation' (by Tone2 validating that they never meant their earlier customers to feel this way, and acting upon it).
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- KVRian
- 523 posts since 19 Jun, 2016
i also tought of that, but it's easier to think of that when you don't have to...
.... finish/tweak/do final tests for the synth release..
... have to do PR/annoucements
... Deal with clients/3th party partners
.. think the other synths and FX's might need, A, B, C, D, .. . . . .. . . .. . .
...
.......
.............. you get the idea..
.... finish/tweak/do final tests for the synth release..
... have to do PR/annoucements
... Deal with clients/3th party partners
.. think the other synths and FX's might need, A, B, C, D, .. . . . .. . . .. . .
...
.......
.............. you get the idea..
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- KVRist
- 345 posts since 4 Dec, 2004 from The Netherlands
That's why I posted my suggestion. A solution that's, in my opinion, beneficial to everyone involved. Easy to implement (not exactly rocket science of course) and my guess is it would provide mr. Krause with a lot of peace of mind right now.tasty tatsyn wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:01 am i also tought of that, but it's easier to think of that when you don't have to...
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- KVRian
- 851 posts since 8 Jan, 2012
Just so I know how much I'm now going to have to pay for the upgrade to v2, what is the difference price if you bought from Best Service please?
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- KVRian
- 851 posts since 8 Jan, 2012
I just paid £83.40 from BS, which is about €97 according to Google. So am I going to have to pay the difference between that price and the €149 its currently being sold for by Tone2?