Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
Kongru
KVRian
682 posts since 23 Feb, 2017

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:54 am

J4R1O wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:46 am
JJ_Jettflow wrote:You realize that if you sign up to PA's newsletter, you get a monthly $25 voucher that you can you use to pay the $20 transfer fee, thus making the transfer fee cost $0.
Just subscribed to PA newsletter. Have they already sent this months' $25 voucher to newsletter subscribers? I just bought bx_digital V3 (second hand) and I'd like to activate it by using the voucher to pay the transfer fee.
There's no loyalty voucher in December.

sjm
KVRAF
1965 posts since 17 Apr, 2004

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:08 am

LeVzi wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:24 am
Teksonik wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:22 am
What is worse, transfer fees or not allowing transfers ? Just askin'........ :shrug:
Not allowing, but I thought that was all stopped ? Some law passed that made them have to allow it ? Or did I dream that.
You (and subsequent posters) are presumably referring to the case involving Oracle from 2012. The law on which the judgement was based is old; this was not a case of a law being passed, but of existing law being applied.

The short synopsis is that in the EU, you may neither prevent the transfer of a software license, nor require compensation for doing so, and must provide the new licensee with the same rights as the old one.

In layman's terms, it just means that in the EU, software licenses are like books. You don't own the rights to the content (copyright), but you are free to do what you like with your licensed copy. And like with a book, you cannot make a copy and then transfer it to someone else.

You don't pay a publisher a fee to sell your book second hand at a flea market. It's the same principle; the vendor got their cash from the initial sale and that's that.
EU Court of Justice wrote: To limit the application, in circumstances such as those at issue in the main proceedings, of the principle of the exhaustion of the distribution right under Article 4(2) of Directive 2009/24 solely to copies of computer programs that are sold on a material medium would allow the copyright holder to control the resale of copies downloaded from the internet and to demand further remuneration on the occasion of each new sale, even though the first sale of the copy had already enabled the rightholder to obtain an appropriate remuneration. Such a restriction of the resale of copies of computer programs downloaded from the internet would go beyond what is necessary to safeguard the specific subject-matter of the intellectual property concerned (see, to that effect, Football Association Premier League and Others, paragraphs 105 and 106).
Source: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... doclang=EN (the original is in German).

It will obviously only be enforced if customers demand that their rights are upheld.
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J4R1O
KVRian
725 posts since 1 Jan, 2013

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 am

Kongru wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:54 am
J4R1O wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:46 am
JJ_Jettflow wrote:You realize that if you sign up to PA's newsletter, you get a monthly $25 voucher that you can you use to pay the $20 transfer fee, thus making the transfer fee cost $0.
Just subscribed to PA newsletter. Have they already sent this months' $25 voucher to newsletter subscribers? I just bought bx_digital V3 (second hand) and I'd like to activate it by using the voucher to pay the transfer fee.
There's no loyalty voucher in December.
Ok. That's good to know. Thanks!
The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.

Izak Synthiemental
KVRian
717 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:18 am

BONES wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:16 pm
4 euros is about Au$6.50. Berlin is something of an exception, My nephew lives in Neukölln and I've never seen kebabs so cheap anywhere else, nor have I ever seen so many kebab shops. He goes to a place that sells a breakfast kebab and coffee for 2 euros.
Yes, Neukölln and Wedding are the exceptions within the exception, becauses since approx. 3 - 4 decades they have become the districts that houses most of the Middle Eastern community in Berlin, which has also significantly increased with newcomers from Syria and Iraq since 2015. Those Kebab and Schwarma spots in Sonnenallee (also known as "The Gaza Strip" due to the prevalence of the Lebanese-Palestinian community in that exact street) mainly serve the Arab-Middle Eastern community there, but obviously everyone else (including regular Berlin folk, the hipster crowd and "expats") benefits from those inexpensive prices.
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Izak Synthiemental
KVRian
717 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:46 am

sjm wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:08 am

You (and subsequent posters) are presumably referring to the case involving Oracle from 2012. The law on which the judgement was based is old; this was not a case of a law being passed, but of existing law being applied.

The short synopsis is that in the EU, you may neither prevent the transfer of a software license, nor require compensation for doing so, and must provide the new licensee with the same rights as the old one.

In layman's terms, it just means that in the EU, software licenses are like books. You don't own the rights to the content (copyright), but you are free to do what you like with your licensed copy. And like with a book, you cannot make a copy and then transfer it to someone else.

You don't pay a publisher a fee to sell your book second hand at a flea market. It's the same principle; the vendor got their cash from the initial sale and that's that.

It will obviously only be enforced if customers demand that their rights are upheld.
Thanks a lot for the legal insights!

What some of these larger audio plugin software companies are doing is not compliant with EU law (as legislated / applied in courts).

Essentially customers have to get in touch with their local / national consumer protection office to discuss this matter. We have a well structued consumer protection infrastructure here in Germany and I guess that's also true for countries such as The Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden.

Any customer who is charged a transfer fee that is not EU-compliant should discuss the matter with the appropriate branch of their consumer protection office. Plugin Alliance is registered in the US, but if they do business within the EU, they need to be compliant. Even Facebook, Google and Apple had to pay non-compliance fines in the past.
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Proper Education Always Corrects Errors

cprompt
KVRian
868 posts since 17 Nov, 2010 from UK

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:37 am

Kongru wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:54 am
J4R1O wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:46 am
Just subscribed to PA newsletter. Have they already sent this months' $25 voucher to newsletter subscribers? I just bought bx_digital V3 (second hand) and I'd like to activate it by using the voucher to pay the transfer fee.
There's no loyalty voucher in December.
You don't get vouchers for just signing up to their newsletter.
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9042 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:14 pm

LeVzi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:26 pm
I won't be selling stuff now, but I have wanted to buy a few decent deals in the marketplace here, plugin's priced around 5-10$ but then there's a $20 fee for them. So instead of getting a bargain, i'm paying more for the transfer fee than the plugin itself.

That I simply cannot accept, I think the fee should be relative to what you charge for it, but then that opens a whole new can of worms with proof of purchase etc.
But I think that is exactly what the developers want, the reason they have transfer fees. They have a business to protect, they aren't charities. Of course, the other reality is that if there wasn't a $20 transfer fee, you can bet those sellers would be asking $20 more, so you, as a buyer, aren't any worse off.
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9042 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:30 pm

fairlyclose wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:56 pm
man, you are like the dream customer
If you mean I'm not a self-centred, self-serving arsehole then yes, I am a dream customer. I know what I am willing to pay and I respect the fact that the vendor has a right to earn a living, so I am not going to screw people over just to save a buck. But I do my due diligence most of the time so I am rarely disappointed with a software purchase. Hardware is another matter altogether, I stuff that up all the time.
Izak Synthiemental wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:46 am
The short synopsis is that in the EU, you may neither prevent the transfer of a software license, nor require compensation for doing so, and must provide the new licensee with the same rights as the old one.
That's only true if the license if permanent but if it's not, those rules don't apply. So what you end up with are more restrictive EULAs (time restricted) and more and more vendors choosing subscription over sales to get around all that and preserve their income streams. Customers don't win here.
You don't pay a publisher a fee to sell your book second hand at a flea market.
That's because that eventuality is built into the price you pay for a new book. That's what you guys don't seem to be able to get through your thick skulls - it's a zero sum game for developers. If they need to earn $100,000 a year to keep a roof over their heads, for example, then they will get that $100,000 one way or another. If you take away their ability to make money through license transfers, then they will just put all their prices up to cover the shortfall. Or they'll only do 25% off on Black Friday instead of 50%. Or maybe they'll just go out of business and leave existing customers high and dry. Who wins then? I would much prefer that the cost was put on the people who benefit from the transaction than it be put on everyone, just as I'd rather only pay for check-in luggage when I need to, instead of paying for it every time I fly.
Any customer who is charged a transfer fee that is not EU-compliant should discuss the matter with the appropriate branch of their consumer protection office. Plugin Alliance is registered in the US, but if they do business within the EU, they need to be compliant. Even Facebook, Google and Apple had to pay non-compliance fines in the past.
That only works because those big companies have offices in the EU, a small developer from the US doesn't have to worry about EU law because the EU can't touch them.
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fairlyclose
KVRist
231 posts since 4 Jul, 2019

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:41 pm

BONES wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:30 pm
fairlyclose wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:56 pm
man, you are like the dream customer
If you mean I'm not a self-centred, self-serving arsehole then yes, I am a dream customer. I know what I am willing to pay and I respect the fact that the vendor has a right to earn a living, so I am not going to screw people over just to save a buck. But I do my due diligence most of the time so I am rarely disappointed with a software purchase. Hardware is another matter altogether, I stuff that up all the time.
no that's not what I meant- you come across to me as a "the company is always right" kind of guy. Of course that's just my impression based on some posts you have made.

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BONES
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9042 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:13 pm

I am simply a realist, I don't expect the universe to rewrite its rules to suit me. And I am not a psychopath, I have empathy for developers and I can see (and respect) their side of the debate.
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LeVzi
KVRAF
2102 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:24 pm

I understand why companies have these transfer fees, but I think they'd do better business with lower fees, especially PA.

More people using the plugins say the Brainworkz stuff, you'll wanna use their stuff more.
Forward ever, Backward never

fairlyclose
KVRist
231 posts since 4 Jul, 2019

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:05 pm

LeVzi wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:24 pm
I understand why companies have these transfer fees, but I think they'd do better business with lower fees, especially PA.

More people using the plugins say the Brainworkz stuff, you'll wanna use their stuff more.
I'm more than happy to pay a fee for their time / effort too. Lots of companies have reasonable fees and easy processes. Quite a few have no fees. Companies that have large fees are greedy as the evidence shows they dont have to, they are just price gouging. Here I am mainly talking about companies with no demo - such as Kontakt libraries - where all the customer has to go on is pretty much company info,ie an advertisement. If a company has a good demo policy - eg Reaper - then a person has plenty of opportunity to find out if the software suits them. If they regret it later there probably is a reasonable case for them to just wear it and move on without complaint

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antic604
KVRAF
3003 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:00 am

LeVzi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:26 pm
I won't be selling stuff now, but I have wanted to buy a few decent deals in the marketplace here, plugin's priced around 5-10$ but then there's a $20 fee for them. So instead of getting a bargain, i'm paying more for the transfer fee than the plugin itself.

That I simply cannot accept, I think the fee should be relative to what you charge for it, but then that opens a whole new can of worms with proof of purchase etc.
This is an exceptional situation, because people bought lots of PA stuff over the years and recently they introduced subscription service a lot of those same people jumped onto, so they're now trying to sell doubles of plugins that they 'own' and the market is FLOODED with them, hence the prices.
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KVRAF
1674 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Re: Companies with Ridiculous Transfer Fees (Edited title)

Post Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:05 pm

Tone2 - one time transfer of full-price software allowed for 19.99 Euros, but only plugins purchased directly from Tone2 can be transferred. IIRC they generally do their big discounts through BestService rather than the Tone2 store...

"Licenses, which have been bought directly from Tone2 can be transferred for a single time. It is not possible to transfer these licenses: NFR (not for resale), discounts, products from resellers like Best Service, products less than 6 months old, free software"
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