I've been playing guitar since the beginning of the year. It's really fun, but I also would love how to learn to improvise/write on the guitar. I come from playing the piano and have basic theory down (what makes scales, why chords work, how to know if something is "in key"). I'm now asking what the best way to learn the fretboard so that improvising can come naturally, and not really have to think about where I need to go for notes to fit.
Here's the thing though, I don't want to just memorize scales to play them up and down. Even though I'm sure that's one of the first steps, that just isn't music. I want to have fun with it and weave from chords to licks in between so that I can jam with friends or experiment on my own.
So how do I do that? Any input helps. I just ask that anything you answer isn't painfully complicated lol. Same if you're gonna recommend a youtube channel or couple of videos that helped. I don't want to sit through rambling or fancy, official-sounding musical terms that feels like I'm sitting in an algebra class.
Don't get me wrong, totally committed to putting in the work. But I want to get my hands on the guitar as fast as possible. That's how I learn. Hands on with someone explaining it to me in the simplest way possible.
I will note that I haven't learned any of this side of guitar. I learn from tabs and videos of songs I like, so all this is new to me. If you're gonna answer, do it straightforward, from point A to point B for a total beginner. Every step from knowing the notes on the fretboard, to getting to that place I can just noodle something.
Thanks so much for reading. Didn't mean for it to be too long and I hope it makes sense, sometimes what's up here don't come out so well haha.
How to begin learning the fretboard so I can improvise?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 34 posts since 20 Jul, 2018
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- KVRian
- 686 posts since 17 Sep, 2007 from Planet Thanet
I like this bloke's channel. Lots of nice, simple ideas such as:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTE355VslW4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTE355VslW4
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- KVRAF
- 11001 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere
It depends on what kind of improvisation you will be doing.
Most people start with a pentatonic minor scale as it's relatively simple to remember and occurs very often in rock music. Depending on which keys you play in most, it makes sense to start learning those keys. Pentatonic E minor is a common one to start with as it includes all the open strings, as does A minor.
Some people like to remember the notes by remembering patterns, so if that works for you then it's a good way to start. For example, you can improvise in E minor by playing all the open strings, the 3rd fret on both E strings and the B string, and the 2nd fret on the A, D and G strings. This would give you a total of 12 positions to play notes when improvising without having to go any higher than the 3rd fret (you can learn other notes the scale later).
One thing that is easier on the guitar when compared to the piano is that once you learn a pattern in a certain key, then you can move that pattern up and down the neck to transpose it. For example, with E minor above, you can move that pattern up 3 frets to become G minor. So you would have all the notes on the 3rd fret, the 6th fret on both E strings and the B string, and the 5th fret on the A, D and G strings.
Most people start with a pentatonic minor scale as it's relatively simple to remember and occurs very often in rock music. Depending on which keys you play in most, it makes sense to start learning those keys. Pentatonic E minor is a common one to start with as it includes all the open strings, as does A minor.
Some people like to remember the notes by remembering patterns, so if that works for you then it's a good way to start. For example, you can improvise in E minor by playing all the open strings, the 3rd fret on both E strings and the B string, and the 2nd fret on the A, D and G strings. This would give you a total of 12 positions to play notes when improvising without having to go any higher than the 3rd fret (you can learn other notes the scale later).
One thing that is easier on the guitar when compared to the piano is that once you learn a pattern in a certain key, then you can move that pattern up and down the neck to transpose it. For example, with E minor above, you can move that pattern up 3 frets to become G minor. So you would have all the notes on the 3rd fret, the 6th fret on both E strings and the B string, and the 5th fret on the A, D and G strings.
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- KVRAF
- 2279 posts since 20 Dec, 2002 from The Benighted States of Trumpistan
Having met a zillion shred dudes who know all the scales and nothing about music, I'd say to train your ears first. (Or at least primarily.) Learn relative pitch. Then, you'll think in terms of "I want a note that's up a minor third" or "that sad sound" and you'll know where to find it.
Wait... loot _then_ burn? D'oh!
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- Boss Lovin' DR
- 12620 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/view/55
For solos you really only need the first 2 patterns, and a shitload of distortion - you can bluff the rest for widdle, kept me going for 35 years.
Then go onto something more interesting like making up weird chords.
For solos you really only need the first 2 patterns, and a shitload of distortion - you can bluff the rest for widdle, kept me going for 35 years.
Then go onto something more interesting like making up weird chords.-
- KVRAF
- 2367 posts since 17 Apr, 2004
You say you're coming from a piano background. There is one very important difference between the guitar and the piano that's due to the way the piano's keyboard is laid out. On a piano, different keys require totally different hand positions because of how the black and white keys are placed. This means you need to learn each key and practice playing in each key as a separate exercise.
On a guitar, you can very easily transpose something simply by moving up and down the fretboard. The hand position doesn't change when going from, say, C major to E flat major, like it would on a piano. That really makes it easy to switch between keys and to learn fingering patterns up and down the fretboard. If you know an open chord shape, you can simply move that shape up the fretboard. If you learn to play the scale of E minor in the open position, you can move up the fretboard and use the exact same fingering patterns to play G# minor 4 frets up. You only need to learn the patterns once.
That is a real practical advantage. There are a lot of guitarists out there who might not know what notes they are playing, but they are playing the right notes. If you know your open chord shapes and how those chords tie together, you can transpose those chord shapes up the neck to switch to a different key or finger a different chord shape in the same key on a different fret.
This works both ways and helps you to learn the notes on the fretboard by name - provided you know the notes in each chord. If you know how to finger an A minor chord, and know where the C note is (the minor third), then moving up to the 7th fret to form an E minor chord with the same shape means that you know that the B string is playing the G (or minor third). Now you know the name of the note at that position, and can find G if you need to.
There's a bit of a paradigm shift, which is why I bring this up. As someone who played piano and then guitar, I found it very helpful to think of the guitar as an instrument that transposes while I was learning. You only need to learn something once to be able to apply it all over the fretboard. Memorise the patterns, and practice them, as that's what your fingers need to be doing. But you can do this by jamming over YT videos or whatever. It doesn't need to be boring scale practice. Though I would suggest you learn the E minor scale (and pentatonic) in the open position to the extent that you know where the notes in the scale are before you just jam away.
On a guitar, you can very easily transpose something simply by moving up and down the fretboard. The hand position doesn't change when going from, say, C major to E flat major, like it would on a piano. That really makes it easy to switch between keys and to learn fingering patterns up and down the fretboard. If you know an open chord shape, you can simply move that shape up the fretboard. If you learn to play the scale of E minor in the open position, you can move up the fretboard and use the exact same fingering patterns to play G# minor 4 frets up. You only need to learn the patterns once.
That is a real practical advantage. There are a lot of guitarists out there who might not know what notes they are playing, but they are playing the right notes. If you know your open chord shapes and how those chords tie together, you can transpose those chord shapes up the neck to switch to a different key or finger a different chord shape in the same key on a different fret.
This works both ways and helps you to learn the notes on the fretboard by name - provided you know the notes in each chord. If you know how to finger an A minor chord, and know where the C note is (the minor third), then moving up to the 7th fret to form an E minor chord with the same shape means that you know that the B string is playing the G (or minor third). Now you know the name of the note at that position, and can find G if you need to.
There's a bit of a paradigm shift, which is why I bring this up. As someone who played piano and then guitar, I found it very helpful to think of the guitar as an instrument that transposes while I was learning. You only need to learn something once to be able to apply it all over the fretboard. Memorise the patterns, and practice them, as that's what your fingers need to be doing. But you can do this by jamming over YT videos or whatever. It doesn't need to be boring scale practice. Though I would suggest you learn the E minor scale (and pentatonic) in the open position to the extent that you know where the notes in the scale are before you just jam away.
Last edited by sjm on Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Voted KVR's resident drunk Robert Smith impersonator (thanks Frantz!)
https://open.spotify.com/artist/2myYesRBRgQB3LkZzEYdt5 | https://soundcloud.com/steevm/
https://open.spotify.com/artist/2myYesRBRgQB3LkZzEYdt5 | https://soundcloud.com/steevm/
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- KVRAF
- 4584 posts since 21 Sep, 2005
You could do worse than learn the Hexatonic scale. It's sort of the bridge between Major and minor scales. It's a glorified blues minor pentatonic scale which is the most widely used scale on guitar (probably), mixed in with a cut down Major/minor heptatonic scale, depending where you root the tonic.
The operative words being 'pentatonic' (five notes) and heptatonic (seven notes). A hexatonic scale is of course six notes.
It forms a very elegant and simple shape up and down the neck and is very easy to visualise and transpose. I realise you aren't looking for scales as such, but the benefits of its easy visualisation and transposition, coupled with its harmonic versatility make it an extremely powerful scale to know, and one that isn't that difficult to learn.
This is a very good lesson that should get you up and running:
http://www.fretjam.com/hexatonic-scale-patterns.html
You can easily get a taste of the modes and wider harmonic theory as well with this scale. That lesson explains things very well in this regard, so I won't bother repeating it.
If you master this scale (not hard) then you can quickly jump between all out blues/rock noodling around a minor pentatonic box, and skip quickly to more interesting diatonic (heptatonic) scales such as Dorian etc. once you learn your modal theory. Of course you could just stick with playing the hexatonic scale in whatever key, and that is a very interesting and musically fulfilling scale in its own right. A bit more involved than a simple minor pentatonic, but without quite the richness (and ability to mess things up) that a Major/minor (Ionian/Aeolian) conjures up.
In my humble opinion of course - people perceive these 'musical images' differently. But one thing is for sure: this is a very easy scale to learn (easier than a Major/minor) relatively speaking. And harmonically it provides a solid intermediary stage between (arguably) the easiest scale of all (minor pentatonic) and the Major/minor diatonic scale with all its inherent harmonic modes.
Go to that free lesson. You won't find better on the whole of the internet. And there is even a video and tutorial included with the shapes mapped out for you so you can see it as well as hear it in action.
The video is a little over ten minutes long and it sounds to me it might be exactly what you are looking for.
The operative words being 'pentatonic' (five notes) and heptatonic (seven notes). A hexatonic scale is of course six notes.
It forms a very elegant and simple shape up and down the neck and is very easy to visualise and transpose. I realise you aren't looking for scales as such, but the benefits of its easy visualisation and transposition, coupled with its harmonic versatility make it an extremely powerful scale to know, and one that isn't that difficult to learn.
This is a very good lesson that should get you up and running:
http://www.fretjam.com/hexatonic-scale-patterns.html
You can easily get a taste of the modes and wider harmonic theory as well with this scale. That lesson explains things very well in this regard, so I won't bother repeating it.
If you master this scale (not hard) then you can quickly jump between all out blues/rock noodling around a minor pentatonic box, and skip quickly to more interesting diatonic (heptatonic) scales such as Dorian etc. once you learn your modal theory. Of course you could just stick with playing the hexatonic scale in whatever key, and that is a very interesting and musically fulfilling scale in its own right. A bit more involved than a simple minor pentatonic, but without quite the richness (and ability to mess things up) that a Major/minor (Ionian/Aeolian) conjures up.
In my humble opinion of course - people perceive these 'musical images' differently. But one thing is for sure: this is a very easy scale to learn (easier than a Major/minor) relatively speaking. And harmonically it provides a solid intermediary stage between (arguably) the easiest scale of all (minor pentatonic) and the Major/minor diatonic scale with all its inherent harmonic modes.
Go to that free lesson. You won't find better on the whole of the internet. And there is even a video and tutorial included with the shapes mapped out for you so you can see it as well as hear it in action.
The video is a little over ten minutes long and it sounds to me it might be exactly what you are looking for.
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- KVRAF
- 4584 posts since 21 Sep, 2005
Forgotten wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:06 am It depends on what kind of improvisation you will be doing.
Most people start with a pentatonic minor scale as it's relatively simple to remember and occurs very often in rock music. Depending on which keys you play in most, it makes sense to start learning those keys. Pentatonic E minor is a common one to start with as it includes all the open strings, as does A minor.
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Eventually you will want to learn the the 'modes': Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian etc. etc.
If you focus your initial learning around the E minor pentatonic as advised, you won't go wrong!
E minor is the relative minor of the G Major scale. And it holds very special properties that no other 'scale' does on the guitar neck. One of those reasons has been mentioned - it includes all the open strings.
Here I illustrate by including the guitar neck for the G Major scale.
Included in this 'guitar neck' is not only the E minor scale and the G Major scale, but all the modes as well.
This is the reason you want to start with GMajor/Eminor, because not only does it include all the open strings, it includes all the 'cowboy chords' as well, aka 'open chords' that will become the basis of your knowledge of the guitar.
But, scale wise, there is no easier 'guitar neck' pattern to learn. Why? Because of those dots on the neck and how they will help you memorise the notes and also because of how the shapes fall between them.
Look at how ALL of the modes in GMajor/Eminor fall on the neck:
1: GMajor (Ionian)
2: Aminor (Dorian)
3: Bminor (Phrygian)
4: CMajor (Lydian)
5: DMajor (Mixolydian)
6: Eminor (Aeolian)
7: F#dim (Locrian).
Go to jguitar and see for yourself:
https://jguitar.com/scale?root=G&scale= ... tes=sharps
Choose A as your root note and Dorian as the scale, and you will see:
Most people remember the modes with a Mnemonic: I, Drink, Pop, Like, My, Aunt, Lucy.
Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian.
Make one up that works for you.
Maybe that made sense?
You don't want to run before you can walk, but you will eventually need to learn at least a major and minor feel for the guitar neck - the modes are just the spices on top really, not absolutely necessary to bluff it (like Donkey Tugger
), but nice to know even in small amounts if you want to progress a bit further.Anyway, this was just a quick illustration of why you want to start visualising the neck from a GMajor/Eminor perspective. To recap:
+ It contains all the 'cowboy/open' chords.
+ It follows the structure of the dots on the neck.
+ It doesn't contain any sharps or flats (apart from the one F# - which is Locrian and the most useless and least used of all the modes).
+ It provides a solid foundation for visualising the modes as they pertain to the Major scale.
Go to the link above (jguitar) and play about with root notes and modes. You will see that the entire neck remains the same, from top to bottom, with only the root notes and 'box' shapes transposing up and down.
[For some reason the hexatonic scale is not included in jguitar and it's a glaring omission in my eyes. By 'hexatonic' I mean the scale as used in that lesson/video I linked to above. There are other 'six note' scales of course.]
And don't forget there are both minor and Major hexatonic scales. As fret jam said, a hexatonic scale can be thought of as either adding a note to a pentatonic scale, or omitting a note from a heptatonic (Major/minor) scale. Depending on which note you add/subtract, you will end up with the relevant Major/minor hexatonic scale.
Which hexatonic scale was the one used in the tutorial video by fret jam (Major or minor)?
Clue: It was Major. C Major Hexatonic -
This is a good tutorial as well:
The Attractively Balanced and Highly Musical E Minor Hexatonic Scale
https://www.guitarworld.com/magazine/st ... cale-video
How to begin learning the fretboard so I can improvise?
That very bottom note on the very first string is as good a place as any!
There is nothing stopping you choosing a different starting point that works better for you, but you have to start somewhere. There is just a certain kind of 'symmetry' and elegance to the Eminor/GMajor scale, overall and in aggregate, that no other key provides. IMHO.
Everything starts with an E...
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- addled muppet weed
- 105800 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
write notes on to squares of paper.
a - g plus several sharps, flats and naturals.
make 2 piles, one with the letters one with the modifiers.
pick a letter plus a modifier
find every occurrence of this note on the neck.
practice, get faster, know stuff!
a - g plus several sharps, flats and naturals.
make 2 piles, one with the letters one with the modifiers.
pick a letter plus a modifier
find every occurrence of this note on the neck.
practice, get faster, know stuff!
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- KVRer
- 6 posts since 4 Nov, 2019
Check out the scales
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- KVRist
- 309 posts since 9 Nov, 2018 from Colorado
First of all, learn the basic scale patterns and movable chord shapes, as well, of course, as your basic "cowboy" chords near the nut. The real light-bulb moment for me was when I realized that there is really just one scale pattern, which spans 12 frets. For different keys, this same pattern just shifts along the neck. Divide this large pattern into five overlapping positions and learn them thoroughly, learning to connect and relate them. Pentatonic just subtracts some notes from this pattern. All the modes are present. You just emphasize different notes in the pattern. Home is a different note. If you really nail this big pattern into your brain, it will open up worlds of music to you. Memorizing it and practicing moving all over it, up and down, back and forth, was the best thing I ever did for my ability to express myself musically.
First, just focus on the overall pattern(s) as well as learning the notes on your sixth string (fattest). As you progress, start learning intervals and where they are in that pattern. Learn where the tonic is first, as that is most important. Then learn fifth, third, fourth, and seventh.
As you learn this pattern and play throughout it over backing tracks, listen intently. Learn to expect the pitch you get when moving from point to point. Try to mentally predict what it will sound like before hitting it. Then hit it and see if you are right. After you do this sort of thing enough, especially after just playing around a lot with the pattern while playing over backing tracks, you will soon find that you just instinctively go to the right places to get the notes that you want, what you are feeling, without thinking at all about intervals, note names, or any of the like, much in the same way that you find the right pitches when singing with your voice. This ability, when it comes, will bring incredible joy! You'll want to play all day!
Tomorrow, I'll dig out an image to share, which is a diagram I made for myself when I was first learning this pattern. Master this and you'll have all the modes, pentatonic, blues, and so on, and will be able to easily play in any key, and even find the key very easily. I really can't express how powerful it will be for you to learn this.
First, just focus on the overall pattern(s) as well as learning the notes on your sixth string (fattest). As you progress, start learning intervals and where they are in that pattern. Learn where the tonic is first, as that is most important. Then learn fifth, third, fourth, and seventh.
As you learn this pattern and play throughout it over backing tracks, listen intently. Learn to expect the pitch you get when moving from point to point. Try to mentally predict what it will sound like before hitting it. Then hit it and see if you are right. After you do this sort of thing enough, especially after just playing around a lot with the pattern while playing over backing tracks, you will soon find that you just instinctively go to the right places to get the notes that you want, what you are feeling, without thinking at all about intervals, note names, or any of the like, much in the same way that you find the right pitches when singing with your voice. This ability, when it comes, will bring incredible joy! You'll want to play all day!
Tomorrow, I'll dig out an image to share, which is a diagram I made for myself when I was first learning this pattern. Master this and you'll have all the modes, pentatonic, blues, and so on, and will be able to easily play in any key, and even find the key very easily. I really can't express how powerful it will be for you to learn this.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
And you describe the one scale. All kind of hexatonic scales exist.
Personally I like 6 rather than 7 lotta the time, but as a cheap-out to getting the whole, no.
I recommend learning multiple fingerings for any and all scale configurations, using strategies like strictly in position; you get a ditone/major third before you duplicate where ‘1’ lies on the next, except between strings 3 & 4, the dupe @ M3 instead of @ P4: this is all you need to know really.
EG: one fingering for (E) major: 1 2 4; 1 2 4; 1 2 on your 5th, 4th, 3rd strings. At 2nd position B C# D#; E F# G#; A B; I say this as it looks like it was asserted there is but one fingering where you simply change position. That’s not it. Optimally you want real flexibility.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 309 posts since 9 Nov, 2018 from Colorado
I promised some charts. I decided the charts need a bit of explanation. So I spent a good part of the day writing up all the basic theory needed to use them well. Here is a link to a ZIP file containing the charts and a very important text file that I strongly encourage you to read! That goes for anyone interested in playing guitar. There is some basic stuff in there that anyone who knows some theory probably already knows. Skim through and hone in on the bits you don't know already! If you already know all of this, it is not for you!
I worked rather hard on this! I hope it all helps! If you find it valuable, share it around wherever you like! Here it is:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17nFBKp ... sp=sharing
Let me know if you have any questions!
I worked rather hard on this! I hope it all helps! If you find it valuable, share it around wherever you like! Here it is:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17nFBKp ... sp=sharing
Let me know if you have any questions!
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- KVRist
- 52 posts since 24 Jan, 2018
Cage system
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- KVRist
- 132 posts since 30 Jan, 2010
Learn one string at a time, start with the high E string and learn each note on every fret, even the higher ones, once you learn that string you'll also have the low E, so learn the other strings, start with the next one only when you have mastered the one before. If you have enough time you'll master the whole fretboard in around a week, it is important that you practice that every day.
Quiz yourself fretting random strings and frets and saying the notes out loud.
Then just learn theory and apply your fretboard knowledge to scales, intervals, chords (also inversions) and arpeggios.
When you try to learn all the notes on the fretboard at once it gets really confusing and it takes a long time, the one string a day method will get you going in no time.
Quiz yourself fretting random strings and frets and saying the notes out loud.
Then just learn theory and apply your fretboard knowledge to scales, intervals, chords (also inversions) and arpeggios.
When you try to learn all the notes on the fretboard at once it gets really confusing and it takes a long time, the one string a day method will get you going in no time.
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