When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
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Michael L
KVRAF
3000 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit

Post Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:55 pm

MeneerJansen wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:49 am
I can't find a drum break that I really like quick
So you have an idea of what you like! There is hope. You may find learning to make your break is more quick, satisfying, skill-building and less costly over the long term than learning to shop for it, catalogue it, retrieve it, edit and alter it. :shrug:
To be or not to be?
Bb

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jancivil
KVRAF
19341 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:57 pm

:o

:)
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Ah_Dziz
KVRAF
2792 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:57 pm

Technically never. Any music made with someone else’s recordings are derivative works and a violation of copyright. If you go beserk enough, then you can get away with a heavily modified sample. But if you’re gonna do all that work to make it into a unrecognizable sound, you may as well make a crazy sound from scratch. I’ve snuck a few snippets of copyright protected samples into places where they shouldn’t have been, but it was mostly as an inside joke for myself, and mangled far beyond the point that it was similar either musically or by timbre to the source. The risk of using something that is even remotely recognizable is not worth it if it’s for a real release, or a movie score, or a track that might generate revenues. In all of those cases you will sign paperwork stating that all of the material you deliver is original and that you have full legal rights to use it.
Last edited by Ah_Dziz on Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

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JoeCat
KVRian
1389 posts since 19 May, 2011 from North Carolina

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:18 pm

I’m sure this post will be deleted and the user banned, but I just gotta say:
This kinda sums up our current lack of faith in humanity. :(

Sorry, JanCivil. I don’t always agree with you, but got your back here all the way.

[mod edit: Same here. And Wholiveira's wish has been granted. Quoted material removed.]

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an-electric-heart
KVRAF
1992 posts since 13 Jun, 2008 from Napier,New Zealand

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:29 pm

Not really what your talking about... but I often source Public Domain audio from Prelinger Archives, not so much music, but sound bites from retro industrial films and the like, that stuff is quite handy to chop up and use in electronic music.

https://archive.org/details/prelinger

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BertKoor
KVRAF
11422 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:34 am

jancivil wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:36 pm
I have read Fair Use carefully [...]

Purpose and character of the use, including whether the use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes: Courts look at how the party claiming fair use is using the copyrighted work, and are more likely to find that nonprofit educational and noncommercial uses are fair. This does not mean, however, that all nonprofit education and noncommercial uses are fair and all commercial uses are not fair; instead, courts will balance the purpose and character of the use against the other factors below. Additionally, “transformative” uses are more likely to be considered fair. Transformative uses are those that add something new, with a further purpose or different character, and do not substitute for the original use of the work.

Nature of the copyrighted work: This factor analyzes the degree to which the work that was used relates to copyright’s purpose of encouraging creative expression. Thus, using a more creative or imaginative work (such as a novel, movie, or song) is less likely to support a claim of a fair use than using a factual work (such as a technical article or news item). In addition, use of an unpublished work is less likely to be considered fair.

Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole: Under this factor, courts look at both the quantity and quality of the copyrighted material that was used. If the use includes a large portion of the copyrighted work, fair use is less likely to be found; if the use employs only a small amount of copyrighted material, fair use is more likely. That said, some courts have found use of an entire work to be fair under certain circumstances. And in other contexts, using even a small amount of a copyrighted work was determined not to be fair because the selection was an important part—or the “heart”—of the work.

Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work: Here, courts review whether, and to what extent, the unlicensed use harms the existing or future market for the copyright owner’s original work. In assessing this factor, courts consider whether the use is hurting the current market for the original work (for example, by displacing sales of the original) and/or whether the use could cause substantial harm if it were to become widespread.
And this is fair use? (it probably is, but that's up to a judge)

In the future, if you quote some proza someone else wrote, please give proper credit. Or at least a link where you found it.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Image
My MusicCalc is back online!!

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
3660 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:49 am

jancivil wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:39 pm
I like this as much richer than some hackup of Amen
https://youtu.be/4jJJHfL1yQA
Thanks for that link!

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VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
8844 posts since 16 Dec, 2002

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:02 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:49 am
jancivil wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:39 pm
I like this as much richer than some hackup of Amen
https://youtu.be/4jJJHfL1yQA
Thanks for that link!
Sterotypical D&B beat that harks back to the 90s.

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
3660 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:13 am

It wasn‘t the beat that touched me!!!

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MeneerJansen
KVRist
40 posts since 10 Sep, 2019

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:12 am

Chapelle wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:41 pm
I like the Vintage Breaks series from Sample Magic. They also have a free pack with a small selection of samples from their commercial packs here:
https://www.samplemagic.com/details/538 ... -free-pack
[...]
Thank you for that website! I like those "samples" very much.

On their FAQ it says: "You may release such compositions commercially without payment of any further fees or royalties for such usage". That's nice. However, further-on in the same FAQ an important issue is addressed: Youtube. It says: "Alternatively, those who have had their music flagged by YouTube’s Content ID matching system can dispute the claim. If you need more information on how to dispute a claim, please visit this website.". There is no link in that sentence, ha ha!

enroe
KVRian
1113 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:59 pm

MeneerJansen wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 am
Is there a way to alter and edit a sample in such a way that it's not illegal anymore?
Mmmh ... that is as if you ask: "When I take another persons car - how long
do I have to alter the car - colour, serial number, license tag - in such a way
that it's not illegal anymore?
"

Do you see the problem?

My advice: It is more satisfying and often easier to build up one's own
drumloop or drumbreak. Starting this may be difficult, but with a
little practice you will succeed!
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs + weird stuff: enroe.de

User avatar
MeneerJansen
KVRist
40 posts since 10 Sep, 2019

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:06 am

MeneerJansen wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:12 am
Chapelle wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:41 pm
I like the Vintage Breaks series from Sample Magic. They also have a free pack with a small selection of samples from their commercial packs here:
https://www.samplemagic.com/details/538 ... -free-pack
[...]
Thank you for that website! I like those "samples" very much.

On their FAQ it says: "You may release such compositions commercially without payment of any further fees or royalties for such usage". That's nice. However, further-on in the same FAQ an important issue is addressed: Youtube. It says: "Alternatively, those who have had their music flagged by YouTube’s Content ID matching system can dispute the claim. If you need more information on how to dispute a claim, please visit this website.". There is no link in that sentence, ha ha!
I contacted them via e-mail and they responded very quickly and "repaired" the link in said FAQ. This is that link for Youtube by the way.

Izak Synthiemental
KVRian
781 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:20 am

It depends on jurisdiction, but you may want to study the recent Moses Pelham vs Kraftwerk case to take some clues!

If you like the character of a certain sample (eg a drum sequence), but you have to totally alter it in order to avoid copyright issues, this will take away the character of the sample.

There are better ways. For example: if you like the rhythm of a certain drum loop, but don't want to copyright infringe, you can use any tool that automatically slices rhythmic sequences into it's pieces and turn it into MIDI data (extract the groove). Then you can use you own copyright free drum sounds to play the exact same rhythm. It's easy to do in Ableton Live, I'm certain Bitwig has that option too, Logic and Cubase also have! There are also plugins that can do it.

Other than that you can alway use samples that are provided under free licenses such as GNU-GPL or Creative Commons. I can highly recommend this here.
http://soundcloud.com/samaritageto

Proper Education Always Corrects Errors

User avatar
MeneerJansen
KVRist
40 posts since 10 Sep, 2019

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:45 am

Izak Synthiemental wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:20 am
It depends on jurisdiction, but you may want to study the recent Moses Pelham vs Kraftwerk case to take some clues!

If you like the character of a certain sample (eg a drum sequence), but you have to totally alter it in order to avoid copyright issues, this will take away the character of the sample.

There are better ways. For example: if you like the rhythm of a certain drum loop, but don't want to copyright infringe, you can use any tool that automatically slices rhythmic sequences into it's pieces and turn it into MIDI data (extract the groove). Then you can use you own copyright free drum sounds to play the exact same rhythm. It's easy to do in Ableton Live, I'm certain Bitwig has that option too, Logic and Cubase also have! There are also plugins that can do it.

Other than that you can alway use samples that are provided under free licenses such as GNU-GPL or Creative Commons. I can highly recommend this here.
Thank you for the link to that nice collection of free royalty free samples! I like 'm.

What tool do you use to automatically turn rhythmic sequences into MIDI data? Would be nice for 'ye olde "Funky Drummer" break. I've tried to program it into my drumcomputer but didn't really get close...

User avatar
jancivil
KVRAF
19341 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: When is a sample so edited or altered that it is not copyrighted?

Post Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:03 am

VariKusBrainZ wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:02 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:49 am
jancivil wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:39 pm
I like this as much richer than some hackup of Amen
https://youtu.be/4jJJHfL1yQA
Thanks for that link!
Sterotypical D&B beat that harks back to the 90s.
Except for the cross-rhythm and angular scansion it creates, a property of Indian Classical drumming.

The context WAS DnB FFS.
:lol:
I may be locatable @:
FB - Public

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