Ableton vs Bitwig - pros/cons?

[dellboy]

If you're looking for the "great" FLS piano roll in Live or Bitwig, forget it. Likely because all the paint-by-numbers FLS stuff some users find so "great" isn't required or desired by people who are willing to learn the craft of music.

Are you bitwig dev? The motivation of "We don't need this" lobbying in random public forum is just weird.

No, he´s writing always the same nonsense...
Everybody who do not play all midi in live via keyboard isn´t a muscian and not crafted enough to produce music...
Do you hear him... all you poor violinists, drummers, saxophonists etc... why didn´t you learn to play piano that you get the permission from him to actually produce music...

Why is it nonsense to encourage people to learn a musical instrument ?

The piano is easy to learn, and mid keyboards are cheap.

[Trancit]

Cubase's graphical note editor is even more featured and and is as easy as in FL to input midi with mouse - why aren't Cubase known as "music theory hacks" then?
Live is actually more popular in non-musical circles like techno music (where most people record sequenced hardware synths or work with audio samples/loops).

I don´t know if you have used the PR in FLS already... it´s not about having the most features... it´s about having what features and if it´s a pleasure to work with or not... I didn´t have used Cubase for many years so I cannot tell much about it but judging from tutorials it doesn´t work as smooth as FLS... if I see that tutors aren´t able to grab the notes they want when they want to because the editor didn´t react, how basic actions are performed and the never ending tool changing... don´t know if it´s a real competitor...

There are 2 thing´s which makes FL´s PR great:

- how it feels (responsiveness, how easy it is to place the mouse at the right spot and let the chosen tool do what it shall do, the looks, how the mouse buttons interact, set zoom factor etc...) and in FLS it´s a real pleasure...

- what additional tools are present and how well equipped they are...
Here just a little example: Presonus added recently very cool scripts to the macro system of the PR (music) editor... but working with them is a PITA as they don´t change things in realtime...
You have to run the action... do you like it??? no??? ...CTRL+Z to undo, open the macro again and start new... WTF!!! That´s the same as using an EQ as an offline FX without any preview... who would do that??

The tools in FLS perform everything in realtime ... showing and let you hear the result as you go... the edit window for the tool doesn´t close as long as you don´t want it and you can make your changes to the setting in realtime as the music plays... you don´t like it... just cancel the process and everything will be reverted to where you started... perfect!!

This is for me a perfect example where a developer not just put new stuff in without any further thinking... Here the dev (GOL in this case) spent a lot of effort that the user can take the best use out of it... and that is what matters for me... to make something really useable is the job of the dev and not the job of the user...

And what shall I say... it´s for sure a matter of taste ... but for me FLS´s PR wins by far over any other even if they are perhaps a bit more feature rich... the others just don´t give me the right feeling, it´s hard to describe... it doesn´t feel as smooth when working with...it feels edgy, rough and clumsy...

I think I am not alone with that feeling judged by how often FLS´s PR is mentioned as being the best...

[anomandaris1]

I have Fl and love it (free upgrades and it is actually stable/not bugged unlike fkin Cubase/Sonar), but all the piano roll hype is a nonsense, sorry. At some point it may have been the best, but Cakewalk, Cubase, S1 users could have as fast workflow, and Reaper users can customize it with scripts and custom actions/buttons, so it can be the best ever for individual needs. Honestly, I think all these DAWs are better for midi.

[tooneba]

If you're looking for the "great" FLS piano roll in Live or Bitwig, forget it. Likely because all the paint-by-numbers FLS stuff some users find so "great" isn't required or desired by people who are willing to learn the craft of music.

Are you bitwig dev? The motivation of "We don't need this" lobbying in random public forum is just weird.

No, he´s writing always the same nonsense...
Everybody who do not play all midi in live via keyboard isn´t a muscian and not crafted enough to produce music...
Do you hear him... all you poor violinists, drummers, saxophonists etc... why didn´t you learn to play piano that you get the permission from him to actually produce music...

Why is it nonsense to encourage people to learn a musical instrument ?

The piano is easy to learn, and mid keyboards are cheap.

Are you encouraging your friend to learn music theory because they aren't using barebone pianoroll like Live's and rather using beefy one like FL's or Cubase's, by telling them you think they tend to just click on things with zero ideas or intent and wind up with something decent sounding?

[dellboy]

Are you encouraging your friend to learn music theory because they aren't using barebone pianoroll like Live's and rather using beefy one like FL's or Cubase's, by telling them you think they tend to just click on things with zero ideas or intent and wind up with something decent sounding?

1: "Are you encouraging your friend to learn music theory ?"

No: A person may be very advanced in music theory and still prefer using a piano roll using the mouse input method.

2: "and rather using beefy one like FL's or Cubase's ?"

No. Use whatever you like to achieve your goals.

3: "you think they tend to just click on things with zero ideas ?"

No. Its possible to have very well thought out musical ideas and use a piano roll to bring them to reality.

4: "and wind up with something decent sounding?"

Neutral : Its always possible to enter things randomly and magically arrive at something good.

[tooneba]

You can't answer the question A and B and C and D by changing it to A or B or C or D. But whatever.

[dellboy]

You can't answer the question A and B and C and D by changing it to A or B or C or D. But whatever.

I couldn't understand the question you were asking and I did my best to answer anyway.

So maybe you could rephrase the question and I will try again.

[Trancit]

I have Fl and love it (free upgrades and it is actually stable/not bugged unlike fkin Cubase/Sonar), but all the piano roll hype is a nonsense, sorry. At some point it may have been the best, but Cakewalk, Cubase, S1 users could have as fast workflow, and Reaper users can customize it with scripts and custom actions/buttons, so it can be the best ever for individual needs. Honestly, I think all these DAWs are better for midi.

Different people different tastes...

It seems to me like you never used FLS´s PR properly as most of it´s tools like Chop or Arpeggiate (at least not that advanced...the clue is here are the featuresets and how you can customize them (Patterns)...) aren´t available in other DAWs...and certainly not acting in realtime... and certainly not with that great support for FLS native devices like per note pan, X and Y modulation etc... this list could go on forever...

Reaper with it´s mouse modifiers comes partly close but i.e. Studio One cannot compete a single bit...
It might be fine for basic stuff and excels now with some macros which are doing what they should so the bottom and the top are covered...but everything in between is meh...

[Ryan99]

I have Fl and love it (free upgrades and it is actually stable/not bugged unlike fkin Cubase/Sonar), but all the piano roll hype is a nonsense, sorry. At some point it may have been the best, but Cakewalk, Cubase, S1 users could have as fast workflow, and Reaper users can customize it with scripts and custom actions/buttons, so it can be the best ever for individual needs. Honestly, I think all these DAWs are better for midi.

Different people different tastes...

It seems to me like you never used FLS´s PR properly as most of it´s tools like Chop or Arpeggiate (at least not that advanced...the clue is here are the featuresets and how you can customize them (Patterns)...) aren´t available in other DAWs...and certainly not acting in realtime... and certainly not with that great support for FLS native devices like per note pan, X and Y modulation etc... this list could go on forever...

Reaper with it´s mouse modifiers comes partly close but i.e. Studio One cannot compete a single bit...
It might be fine for basic stuff and excels now with some macros which are doing what they should so the bottom and the top are covered...but everything in between is meh...

Different tastes, but you don’t seem to know Studio One very well to say this...

[Trancit]

Different tastes, but you don’t seem to know Studio One very well to say this...

Not perfectly for sure but good enough to stand with my opinion that it cannot compete for me ...

It doesn´t have the looks (I find the music editor quite ugly) not the responsiveness or in short not that "feeling" and I don´t like how advanced tools are integrated with the blindflight method...

The Pattern editor otoh is very nice and for me much more advanced as FLS´s Step Sequencer...

[VariKusBrainZ]

For me its not so much the tools in Fruity's piano roll that make it better.

Even without them, if it was bare bones and only capable of drawing in notes its still better than all the competion because of the way it works. You can literally paint notes in a way none of my other DAWs allow.

You have to try it to understand if youre basing your judgement on how you think it works rather than how it actually works.

[stamp]

And yes, Bitwig is well on its way towards being as bloated and over engineered as most others.

As much as I usually agree with you this time I don't. May you elaborate on your statement?

[inkwarp]

I think I am not alone with that feeling judged by how often FLS´s PR is mentioned as being the best...

No, no.. Not alone.
It is the fastest piano roll I still use it even if just as rewire or vst plugin.
It's still superior in that respect, imo.

[antic604]

How did we go from comparing Live vs. Bitwig to S1 vs FL?

[VariKusBrainZ]

How did we go from comparing Live vs. Bitwig to S1 vs FL?

Because the Reaper fanboys have all gone to bed