Is there any host sequencer on Windows that can effectively use 32 cores/64 logical cores?

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Hi everyone, please bear with me through this long post. I have finally moved on from mac, which I have used all my recording life.. as far back as Pro Tools III in 1994! (what I learned on).
Basically, I have only ever used Pro Tools, but unfortunately I am not happy with the continued lack of progress on promised features. Seeing some videos of features in other programs made me quite envious and I would think, "if only pro tools could do that and save me so much time"!

One obvious example of this would be that track folders were promised in 2018. We are near 2020 and have no idea what is happening with that "promise". Also, the elastic audio quality is really quite bad vs modern DAW's which use Zplane that sounds much better. Avid even managed to ruin the offline X Form (Izotope radius) in elastic audio, by changing the settings circa 2008 to one that mushes transients. it's just all these little things that have pushed me away, but by far the number one was that to use the PT HD software now, I need to pay 800 USD per year just for the software. I morally refuse to do it. And you won't believe me when I tell you, that I won't even have a perpetual license for that cost. That's for a subscription.

The problem is, I make large projects. Mostly orchestral stuff, usually a minimum of 128 tracks. All the plugins I love consume a lot of CPU. For example, I love the IK Tape plugin. This is by far the best tape plugin on the market (to my ears in any case), and has completely replaced an analog tape workflow. The problem with that is, my 10 core mac could not even remotely handle using just a small number of them in a heated mix session (it's an outdated mac, a 10 core trashcan style mac pro, 3ghz base clock, 3.6ghz all core turbo, ivy bridge cpu generation).
What I have been doing in the last year is using bootcamp at every opportunity in my spare time, to feel comfortable with windows. I have just slowly taught myself as much as I can about it in my spare time. But in my infinite wisdom, I only ever used Pro Tools in it, never thinking outside the box. And yes, Pro Tools works great in windows with 20 threads.. It sees them all and distributes fairly evenly. Now, with my mac computer on it's last legs, it is time to finally build myself a windows machine. My husband and I moved back to Australia last year and things are very expensive here, even compared to the UK (and all the people here from the UK know how bad we get shafted over there). However, I don't want to skimp on the main computer. My goal is to build a 32 core "thread ripper" ryzen based system with around 16 terabytes of internal SSD storage and 128 gigabytes of ram. The issue is, having experience only with Pro tools, I have no idea what DAW can make use of all that power, if there is indeed one!

I realise that with such large projects, an instance of IK tape on every channel would be unrealistic even for such a cpu, however I think that an instance on every sub group and the master, as well as just a couple of individual tracks that it would really benefit, should be possible with the 3970X. After some investigation, I am positive this is the only relatively "affordable" CPU that can do it. We use a LOT of outboard samplers and romplers, but of course, the one VI we do make use of is Kontakt with a plethora of sample libraries, which provide something that the small comparative footprint of hardware samplers simply can not. So I'd definitely need plenty of CPU power for that too.
I know *nothing* about Windows DAWs. I was a mac girl from day one, a pro tools girl since version 3, and the world of windows is all new to me.
Any recommendations on a DAW that has a left to right linear workflow, can do 256 audio tracks and can make use of all those cores would me most welcome. The only contenders I can say are out of the running are a DAW called Reaper, and another called Samplitude. I found the GUI's of both incredibly complex and painful on the eye after Pro Tools, which is sheer simplicity in it's presentation. Those two were both recommendations given to me just a couple of days ago from colleagues, who obviously know me a lot less well than they thought they did :lol:

So, I thought I would try here. Any ideas? I'd like something with a perpetual license and punctual, competent support. Something that is not going to cost 1500 Australian dollars just to subscribe to every year. Dongles (obviously) don't bother me, and I'd be willing to spend around 1000 AU for something I actually own. Midi in pro tools has never been it's strong point, so anything that level or better is something I could make do with. The key is that it has to be able to make use of such a multi core monster cpu. I have already been advised that Cubase has many problems in windows with such high core counts, which is a shame as I have heard a lot about that one and in the videos it did look interesting. What about this "Studio One"? Is it reliable? The price and feature list seems great. Can it work with that many processing cores? Really, I am all ears, open to any suggestions. The other reason we really need the most powerful computer possible (without spending 25 thousand dollars on a xeon workstation) is that our new room is much smaller and therefore we have to sell off some gear, including a tape machine. All the mixing itself will be done in the box as they say, as we are even replacing our analog mixers with RME interfaces/A/D converters simply for space reasons.

Any suggestions are most welcome, and I think I put this in the correct place, as the main question is about a host sequencer. I apologise if it needs to be moved.
Thank you all!
Windows 10 Pro|Intel 9960X @ 4.4 GHZ|128GB Corsair|16TB SSD|AMD 5700XT|Gigabyte Designare|Avid HDX x2|Antelope Orion 32HD x2|Pro Tools 2019.12

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The problem with audio processing is that it's inherently serial, so it's pretty difficult to spread it accros multiple cores other than in specific cases (i.e. separate unison voices, taps of a delay, etc.). It's not uncommon to see a powerful CPU used only in say 50% but chocking in playback, because there's a single track with a CPU heavy devices chain straining single core to the max. That's why for audio it has always been recommended to get the most powerful single-threaded performance and only then add more cores. That's why Intel was - for the longest time, perhaps it's changed now - preferred over AMD.

Obviuosly I don't have such experience myself, but seeing how people like Junkie XL or Hans Zimmer work on Cubase and I'm pretty sure their track counts go into hundreds, I'd try that first. Junkie XL has a video where he is showing his comupter grid, i.e. a rack full of stacked PC boards, so I'm sure he's using more than quad-core setup ;)



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For example, I love the IK Tape plugin. This is by far the best tape plugin on the market (to my ears in any case), and has completely replaced an analog tape workflow. The problem with that is, my 10 core mac could not even remotely handle using just a small number of them in a heated mix session
I think you're supposed to put this plugin on a bus (eg master or group) and not chunk it on each & every track.
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Reaper supports up to 128 cores automatically (but AFAIK you can bypass automatic core detection and just type in any number really, so it should be good for zillion core CPUs when they appear!). It is the most efficient DAW when it comes to multithreaded workflow (and also doesn't have a limited number of tracks). It also has themes, with several being close to how PT looks...

https://stash.reaper.fm/theme/2270/ProT ... erThemeZip
Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:58 amFor example, I love the IK Tape plugin. This is by far the best tape plugin on the market (to my ears in any case)
Do give a shot to u-he Satin. To me, this one beats everything else.
Last edited by EvilDragon on Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ableton assigns tracks to different cores. That probably how it works for all DAWs, since it's easy and straightforward to implement. But the bottleneck is the longest audio path, processed serially.

When rendering full project, I'm happy that my now CPU usage of 12-core Ryzen 3900X goes up to 25%, with previous Ryzen 1700 it was around 16%, which is only single core indeed.
My goal is to build a 32 core "thread ripper" ryzen based system with around 16 terabytes of internal SSD storage and 128 gigabytes of ram. The issue is, having experience only with Pro tools, I have no idea what DAW can make use of all that power, if there is indeed one!
It's more like a project issue than DAW. I barely go above 3 GB RAM usage with my projects :hihi:

Note that I bounce tracks to audio eventually, even multiple times after some processing. It's easier to me that way, and of course it gets faster in the long run, when rendering the final mix multiple times.

Long story short: Good single-thread performance is much more important than having dozens of cores.
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Also I would suggest not to go with Threadripper's current generations. For low latency audio workflows it has some issues that make it not fully utilize the CPU before you get dropouts. Read on:

http://www.scanproaudio.info/2018/08/24 ... repeating/

Maybe the very latest Ryzen would be better, I hear they managed to work out some of those latency issues.

However, what DJ Warmonger says is true. Having many cores is nice, but for DAW work, you want to have ALL those cores as fast as possible. And for that, Intel's i9-9900K is really great. You get 16 logical cores which you can overclock to an all-core 5 GHz clock with good cooling solution. This is tremendous.

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BertKoor wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:06 am
For example, I love the IK Tape plugin. This is by far the best tape plugin on the market (to my ears in any case), and has completely replaced an analog tape workflow. The problem with that is, my 10 core mac could not even remotely handle using just a small number of them in a heated mix session
I think you're supposed to put this plugin on a bus (eg master or group) and not chunk it on each & every track.
Pssst! That's a secret!

@OP: Put every plugin on every channel and process a thousand tracks in real time? To make 'orchestral'? OMFG! :-o

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EvilDragon wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:47 am Also I would suggest not to go with Threadripper's current generations. For low latency audio workflows it has some issues that make it not fully utilize the CPU before you get dropouts. Read on:

http://www.scanproaudio.info/2018/08/24 ... repeating/

Maybe the very latest Ryzen would be better, I hear they managed to work out some of those latency issues.

However, what DJ Warmonger says is true. Having many cores is nice, but for DAW work, you want to have ALL those cores as fast as possible. And for that, Intel's i9-9900K is really great. You get 16 logical cores which you can overclock to an all-core 5 GHz clock with good cooling solution. This is tremendous.
Are you certain? The thread ripped literally just released is based on Zen 3..

I really appreciate all the fast replies.. I just wanted to reiterate as per first post that reaper is sadly not an option, even though the commercial pricing is very attractive. One main thing about a sequencer/audio editor is that I have to feel comfortable using it, and since I created this post a couple hours ago, I decided to give it another chance. I do not gel with that program at all. I see menu after menu, text upon text, endless options.. This is not for me.. Furthermore, even the way the ruler looks feels wrong to me. The snap feels funny and I don't like having to open up a snap menu. I tried 2 of the popular skins and it made no difference to how the core program feels. My general impression of Reaper is that it was made by some genius mathematician (was it by the way?) who is not a musician and doesn't know how musician's think.. perhaps even a savant.. and he/she expects us all to be as smart and in tune with him/her.

I am a simple gal who likes neat streamlined looks. One thing I noticed I can't do in reaper is do clip volume editing like I do in pro tools. It seems I have to split the clip to get individual gain handles on a large clip. In Pro tools i literally just highlight whatever portion of the clip I want to change and drag up or down. Levelling a long clip in pro tools is insanely easy and intuitive. I'd prefer something that can work that way if possible. Ableton doesn't seem to be appropriate for my uses, as apparently there is no visual compensation for plugin latency, only audible compensation. This would really aggravate me as I use many plugins with latency or even high latency, including a lot of fab filter Pro-Q medium latency linear phase mode.
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antic604 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:56 am The problem with audio processing is that it's inherently serial, so it's pretty difficult to spread it accros multiple cores other than in specific cases (i.e. separate unison voices, taps of a delay, etc.). It's not uncommon to see a powerful CPU used only in say 50% but chocking in playback, because there's a single track with a CPU heavy devices chain straining single core to the max. That's why for audio it has always been recommended to get the most powerful single-threaded performance and only then add more cores. That's why Intel was - for the longest time, perhaps it's changed now - preferred over AMD.

Obviuosly I don't have such experience myself, but seeing how people like Junkie XL or Hans Zimmer work on Cubase and I'm pretty sure their track counts go into hundreds, I'd try that first. Junkie XL has a video where he is showing his comupter grid, i.e. a rack full of stacked PC boards, so I'm sure he's using more than quad-core setup ;)



I understand this but remember we are dealing with a lot of outboard here, which means a lot of audio recorded tracks which means a lot of playback tracks.. The RME will handle the input monitoring via it's own processors on board, so we can monitor with some basic effects, and then everything will be recorded to audio eventually. Therefore something that can really multithread well will be beneficial to high audio track count. In pro tools on the 10 core, it could use around
1500% of the 2000% maximum (20 logical cores at 100% each in activity monitor), so I am well aware a DAW can not completely use all of the real cpu power. I guess it's due to the realtime nature of the processing. The problem with Cubase 10 seems to be that it will only use 6 cores if asio guard is disabled, or on tracks that are armed for record. Some guy calling himself tuff cat has discovered this and apparently he builds computer systems for musicians and is switched on.

If we do indeed settle with the RME, that probably wouldn't matter as the RME would be doing the direct monitoring duties for external signals, and surely 6 cores would be enough for one instance of kontakt recording at a time. But he explains it quite well and if one were using Cubase to monitor a large number of external inputs simultaneously, it is not really suited for that at all anymore on Windows. Imagine only 6 cores of 32 being used to monitor 96 to 110 incoming tracks! It would likely tip over, as we need FX there too, at least a compressor and EQ on many sounds. When we have a vocalist in, we need a monitoring reverb at low latency or they get very fussy about comb filtering (understandable). Perhaps hans zimmer has his set up a specific way, with an unlimited budget, that takes all the monitoring strain off Cubase and therefore he doesn't run into the issue. Apparently with tracks that are playing back with Asio guard enabled, there is no problem at all and cubase can use as many cores as you have. But still, I am not sure i like the idea of being permanently restricted to a variety of 3 different RME effects for 100 different incoming signals. I guess there's still plenty of reading to be done.

A 9900K is no where near powerful enough for us..All 10 cores in the mac pro run at their maximum turbo speed of 3.6ghz at all times and we barely scrape though with 2 HDX cards. I have never seen the cpu drop below 3.6ghz when using a DAW. We need at LEAST twice or even better, 2.5 to 3x the power we currently have natively if we are going to replace Pro tools HDX. I just don't see a 9900K running 256 or even more tracks of orchestral project in realtime without freezing, with tons of effects everywhere. We were only able to get away with it on the trashcan because of the DSP power of the Pro Tools HDX cards. We are now confined to one control room and HD interfaces and cards are not an option, with the noise they make. They are hoovers. The thing is, the DSP only works with Pro Tools anyway and the whole point is to move away from it.. In any case, we have already sold them so it's a moot point.

If this ends up being a futile search then it does, but I am at least determined to try :)
Windows 10 Pro|Intel 9960X @ 4.4 GHZ|128GB Corsair|16TB SSD|AMD 5700XT|Gigabyte Designare|Avid HDX x2|Antelope Orion 32HD x2|Pro Tools 2019.12

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Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:01 amI really appreciate all the fast replies.. I just wanted to reiterate as per first post that reaper is sadly not an option, even though the commercial pricing is very attractive. One main thing about a sequencer/audio editor is that I have to feel comfortable using it, and since I created this post a couple hours ago, I decided to give it another chance. I do not gel with that program at all. I see menu after menu, text upon text, endless options.. This is not for me.. Furthermore, even the way the ruler looks feels wrong to me. The snap feels funny and I don't like having to open up a snap menu. I tried 2 of the popular skins and it made no difference to how the core program feels. My general impression of Reaper is that it was made by some genius mathematician (was it by the way?) who is not a musician and doesn't know how musician's think.. perhaps even a savant.. and he/she expects us all to be as smart and in tune with him/her.
That's pretty spot on up to & including the "savant".

I share your reservation towards endless menus, so please have a look at Studio One or Cubase. Especially the former offers really good, streamlined worklfow but I'm not sure how it handles multiple CPU cores. It has a 30-days demo.
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Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:01 amAre you certain? The thread ripped literally just released is based on Zen 3..
I would wait ScanProAudio's review of it. If they greenlight it, then I'd go with it.
Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:01 amMy general impression of Reaper is that it was made by some genius mathematician (was it by the way?) who is not a musician and doesn't know how musician's think..
Reaper was written by Justin Frankel, who is not a genius mathematician, but he gave the world Winamp, if you remember that. He also plays a bunch of instruments, albeit self-taught.

Also, Reaper took off with Sony Vegas as inspiration (since that was what Justin used before), so this shaped Reaper quite differently compared to other DAWs. But, routing flexibility, the best CPU usage, very fast startup, and the ability to create your own workflow (yes, this takes time, and yes, there are a bunch of options to do that) are some things I always consider as positives when Reaper is concerned. That said, for sure it's not for everyone.
Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:01 amOne thing I noticed I can't do in reaper is do clip volume editing like I do in pro tools.
YES, you can - Reaper had this feature for a long time! Every clip has its own volume envelope (it's called "take envelopes" in Reaper. You also have clip gain, which can be shown as a little knob on top of the item. This is enabled in Preferences->Appearance->Media->Item volume control.



I think you should check out Digital Performer, based on what you say. It also has some very interesting features, and it's very much composer-oriented.
Last edited by EvilDragon on Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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perfumer wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:18 am
BertKoor wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:06 am
For example, I love the IK Tape plugin. This is by far the best tape plugin on the market (to my ears in any case), and has completely replaced an analog tape workflow. The problem with that is, my 10 core mac could not even remotely handle using just a small number of them in a heated mix session
I think you're supposed to put this plugin on a bus (eg master or group) and not chunk it on each & every track.
Pssst! That's a secret!

@OP: Put every plugin on every channel and process a thousand tracks in real time? To make 'orchestral'? OMFG! :-o
LOL no need to make fun.. there's rarely any real instruments involved.. maybe you don't realise but samplers recorded to tape sound fantastic if done correctly. I have done many A/B comparisons and I pick the right one every time. It's subtle but great. In PT we also used a process called Heat, that if mixed INTO from the start, was really quite magical. That, I'll miss.

And who says that the tape plugin is not designed to be used on a per track basis? Maybe my old brain has no cells left according to you, but I clearly remember recording each individual sound to it's own channel of real tape when we had the patience and desire to actually record to a real tape machine. The IK has models of multi track tape as well as bus..
And if it was real orchestra, what would YOU prefer to record it to? Just curious.
The IK tape is the closest to the real thing ever in plugin form.. I know I was recommended Satin but in case some are not jiving with me yet, I like SIMPLE. The IK is childs play to use tog et great results. I am all about speed of workflow. Satin is for those who want to tweak and tweak, at least that was my impression of the demo.
If there is a lighter cpu tape plugin that you know of that is simple to use, and you believe it sounds as good as the IK multimedia, why not tell me rather than make fun? Did I say something to offend you? I am genuinely curious. Everything else I heard sounds more like farting than tape, and I'm serious about that. But there is surely stuff I missed. Phoenix II is wonderful but that is Pro tools only. If that had a VST version we wouldn't have even had this discussion as it's suitable for all my needs in that department. Again.. moving away from Pro tools. Scared to be stuck in an almost $1500 AUD per year subscription that if we miss one payment, we lose use of the DAW, or if Avid go under, we lose use of the DAW.
Windows 10 Pro|Intel 9960X @ 4.4 GHZ|128GB Corsair|16TB SSD|AMD 5700XT|Gigabyte Designare|Avid HDX x2|Antelope Orion 32HD x2|Pro Tools 2019.12

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Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:34 amAnd if it was real orchestra, what would YOU prefer to record it to? Just curious.
If it were a real orchestra, you definitely wouldn't record each and every instrument individually to tape. :) In this case I would apply the tape on each mic position (bussing the same mic position from all instruments then applying tape emulation plugin on that bussed track ONLY, and making sure that the bussed track is the one going to master output, whereas individual tracks DON'T go to master track). Of course, I wouldn't apply tape emulation on sample libraries that were already recorded on tape (Spitfire, for example).
Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:34 amSatin is for those who want to tweak and tweak, at least that was my impression of the demo.
Well, it also comes with a bunch of presets to get you started. You don't HAVE to tweak. Nobody forces you to, despite the number of controls there are.
Last edited by EvilDragon on Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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antic604 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:27 am
Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:01 amI really appreciate all the fast replies.. I just wanted to reiterate as per first post that reaper is sadly not an option, even though the commercial pricing is very attractive. One main thing about a sequencer/audio editor is that I have to feel comfortable using it, and since I created this post a couple hours ago, I decided to give it another chance. I do not gel with that program at all. I see menu after menu, text upon text, endless options.. This is not for me.. Furthermore, even the way the ruler looks feels wrong to me. The snap feels funny and I don't like having to open up a snap menu. I tried 2 of the popular skins and it made no difference to how the core program feels. My general impression of Reaper is that it was made by some genius mathematician (was it by the way?) who is not a musician and doesn't know how musician's think.. perhaps even a savant.. and he/she expects us all to be as smart and in tune with him/her.
That's pretty spot on up to & including the "savant".

I share your reservation towards endless menus, so please have a look at Studio One or Cubase. Especially the former offers really good, streamlined worklfow but I'm not sure how it handles multiple CPU cores. It has a 30-days demo.
This is why I am asking about it in particular. My silly man of a husband downloaded the studio one 4.0 demo when it came out, never used it, and now our account says we already activated the demo. It will not even let us try Version 4.5. Do you think there'd be any possibility of account banning if we made a second account to try it? I have already ordered an "elicenser" so I can try the full demo of cubase. It is coming from the EU so who knows how long it will take.. This is why I thought I would ask in the meantime and I really DO appreciated your help. Thank you for your positive attitude, it really helps cause it's a huge move after 25 years.
Windows 10 Pro|Intel 9960X @ 4.4 GHZ|128GB Corsair|16TB SSD|AMD 5700XT|Gigabyte Designare|Avid HDX x2|Antelope Orion 32HD x2|Pro Tools 2019.12

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EvilDragon wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:37 am
Amelia70 wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:34 amAnd if it was real orchestra, what would YOU prefer to record it to? Just curious.
If it were a real orchestra, you definitely wouldn't record each and every instrument individually. In this case I would apply the tape on each mic position (bussing the same mic position from all instruments then applying tape emulation plugin on that bussed track). Of course, I wouldn't apply tape emulation on sample libraries that were already recorded on tape (Spitfire, for example).
As I said, the bulk is done from external sources and i have found the HEAT or phoenix II improved every mix. You may not like it, I did.. What can I say? Kontakt is used only when we can't quite nail the sound in hardware.. but truth be told, we are old, both of us, and hardware geeks. I was 100% sequencing on keyboard workstations before pro tools had competent midi! I am THAT old LOL!.

I am one of those people that also won't spend 1000$ on a sample library but will spend triple that on technically inferior sounding hardware.. it's just the way I am built.

THAT SAID..now that i AM older, in all seriousness, now that I can't stay up for 20 hours at a time, I have turned my focus and desire to simplicity as far as the main DAW is concerned, as far as sequencing the midi is concerned, and as far as getting the sounds into the computer are concerned.. It wasn't always like that, but it is now. I still LOVE being hands on with actual hardware to load, tweak and create sounds. I also use a lot of synthetic analog strings in my work.. I think you'd know if you heard it, but we are not doing that here as it's irrelevant.

In a nutshell.. give me a clean interface with easy midi (and PT midi whilst not powerful is incredibly intuitive and simple to understand), easy audio editing, great plugin effects but leave me my hardware for as many of my sounds as possible.. Maybe that can also explain to you why Cubase won't work for us unless we have a dedicated DSP solution.. we need a DAW that can handle a huge amount of incoming streams at low latency. My posts are so long that I keep trying to condense them, but please don't think that we ONLY write classical orchestral music here, or that we only have clients we produce for who compose orchestral music. The point is that we DO do plenty of that and therefore need a computer than can deal with such a massive amount of tracks. When I start getting complaints from my clients, honestly, the first one that says I hate your work, I will then re evaluate the way I mix and how I like something to sound. I think that's a fair statement.

Let me make one last point. The ik multimedia plugin is SO good, so outstanding and incredible in every way, that it is is even worth using to run sounds through AGAIN that have already been recorded to tape.. You think I am the only one doing it? You'd be surprised! Ask Peter.

Also, I feel i have backed myself into a corner a little bit by giving the example of what we need our setup TO do, meaning to others that that's ALL we do, which was never my intention and I apologise for that. You have to have something that can cover your most extreme projects, but it doesn't mean every project is one of those or even the same music style.
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