Ableton vs Bitwig - pros/cons?

[pekbro]

I just record the stuff, no piano roll. I don’t even have to quantize as my timing is always good. *shrugs

[ShawnG]

How did we go from comparing Live vs. Bitwig to S1 vs FL?

Because the Reaper fanboys have all gone to bed

This is the correct answer.

[tooneba]

A very good time to summon Ableton pianoroll master race advocator.

[apoclypse]

Different tastes, but you don’t seem to know Studio One very well to say this...

Not perfectly for sure but good enough to stand with my opinion that it cannot compete for me ...

It doesn´t have the looks (I find the music editor quite ugly) not the responsiveness or in short not that "feeling" and I don´t like how advanced tools are integrated with the blindflight method...

The Pattern editor otoh is very nice and for me much more advanced as FLS´s Step Sequencer...

I have both these DAWs and I don't agree. FL's PR is pretty good, great in certain instances even but S1's Piano Roll is actually pretty damn good. I really, really like the way S1 handles automation in the PR. I was never a fan of the way FL handles that.

As for looks, that's subjective. I personally think FLStudio looks like a toy but that's just me. The "feeling" and all that are not quantifiable so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

That being said I agree that S1 should focus on more realtime tools rather than "do this and click apply" type tools. They do that in certain instances (their Quantization tools for example) but the immediacy isn't there unless you use shortcuts and macros.

[apoclypse]

In-terms of Piano Roll, Bitwig's is certainly not the best more featureful Piano Roll. They seem to have taken a page from Ableton in that regard, however there are tools that it has which are pretty cool like the Histogram for Per note pitch editing. It just needs some more quality of life features like scales and an easy way to draw arps etc in the PR.

[SLiC]

I think a lot of people overlook the midi rack tools that do apply scales (and micro tuning) arps,and chords etc. There are some incredibly powerful midi tools that unlike normal piano roll can be modulated and altered in real time ,so it's worth exploring.

[Trancit]

I think a lot of people overlook the midi rack tools that do apply scales (and micro tuning) arps,and chords etc. There are some incredibly powerful midi tools that unlike normal piano roll can be modulated and altered in real time ,so it's worth exploring.

But don´t forget that every "normal" DAW is able doing this as well...
This is not a benefit of using Bitwig or Live... they just have very simple editors and need these tools to offer a bit more functionality what you get with other DAWs anyway already built in, plus the same possibilities to run this midi through whatever plugin to mangle it further...

[Trancit]

I have both these DAWs and I don't agree. FL's PR is pretty good, great in certain instances even but S1's Piano Roll is actually pretty damn good. I really, really like the way S1 handles automation in the PR. I was never a fan of the way FL handles that.
...

The automation feature for S1´s PR is nice indeed... but lacks then otoh of deeper integration of native devices like FLS has like per note pan, x/y control, slide... in FLS with native devices was already since a decade or more a lot possible wherefor others now have to integrate MPE for...

It´s a matter of preference what is more important for you...

[pdxindy]

I think a lot of people overlook the midi rack tools that do apply scales (and micro tuning) arps,and chords etc. There are some incredibly powerful midi tools that unlike normal piano roll can be modulated and altered in real time ,so it's worth exploring.

But don´t forget that every "normal" DAW is able doing this as well...
This is not a benefit of using Bitwig or Live... they just have very simple editors and need these tools to offer a bit more functionality what you get with other DAWs anyway already built in, plus the same possibilities to run this midi through whatever plugin to mangle it further...

I don’t think every normal DAW has the functionality of the new Bitwig microtonal capability.

And it is well integrated into the core app... so MPE, voice stacking, per voice modulation and so on.

Bitwig has some unique tools not readily available elsewhere.

[Trancit]

I don’t think every normal DAW has the functionality of the new Bitwig microtonal capability.
And it is well integrated into the core app... so MPE, voice stacking, per voice modulation and so on.
Bitwig has some unique tools not readily available elsewhere.

1. We try to learn reading right from the beginning...
This was what I responded to:

I think a lot of people overlook the midi rack tools that do apply scales (and micro tuning) arps,and chords etc. ...

And these parts are easily available as Midi VSTs ... therefore any DAW offering VST support can do the same...agree??? And I just mentioned Bitwig as it offers as Ableton clone the same "rack" theme...
(Yeah, let´s start the "Bitwig is no Ableton clone" war!!!)

2. Yes, Bitwig does offering some (or quite a lot) unique tools so it does exotic stuff like no other...

Sadly for my personal taste, it falls short in many other parts of the Midi editor and has many graphical issues especially when doing layered editing...

For me Bitwigs PR wasn´t the greatest experience...

[pdxindy]

And these parts are easily available as Midi VSTs ... therefore any DAW offering VST support can do the same...agree???

You said built into the DAW

Also, Bitwig is offering some core capabilities not directly possible with VST’s

[Trancit]

...
You said built into the DAW...

On top of being able to use plugins for that... yes, of course... most DAWs like Studio One, Reaper, FL Studio have inbuild tools to create chords, arppegiate stuff directly in the PR, add groove, chop them in different rythms, restrict to scales...without having the need to run the midi through plugins in realtime and having to record the result for further editing... etc...

The only popular ones needing plugins for that are Ableton, Bitwig and (I think)... Reason...

Also, Bitwig is offering some core capabilities not directly possible with VST’s

I already confirmed that... Bitwig does the basics and very well the exotic stuff but lacks everything in between...
Most others do very well the basics and the advanced stuff but lack of (mostly) the exotic stuff where at least Bitwig shines (Ableton not so...)...

It´s again a matter of taste what´s important for you...

I more of a trancy guy... for me the most what matters are chords...their creating, handling and mangling... this is i.e. where FLS shines like the brightest star in the sky with it´s easy auditioning, it´s stamp tool, the chop, the arpeggiate, articulate and groove quantizing...respectively that everything is highly user customizeable via user defineable patterns (which no other DAW offers to this extend)...

None of that is available in Bitwig/Ableton apart from the very basic stuff while at least (user) groove quantizing in Ableton...

FLS otoh fails badly when it comes to handling and using audio clips, advanced arranging and organization... it´s playlist (what equals to the Arranger in "normal" Daws) is horrific outdated and lacks of many necessary features... i.e. it´s even impossible to copy/paste something to the playcursor position and much other standard stuff...as well as the playlist isn´t latency compensated neither (problematic with automation and transport synced plugins like e.g. LFO tool etc...)

[Fraggle]

Bitwig is more stable, flexible and enjoyable - from Midi to audio to sound design , bitwig feels more polished and more deeply thought through. All Ableton has over bitwig is the beat repeat fx -

After More than a decade using live bitwig feels like moving from a Hyundai to a Ferrari

[xbitz]

...
I more of a trancy guy... for me the most what matters are chords...their creating, handling and mangling... this is i.e. where FLS shines like the brightest star in the sky with it´s easy auditioning, it´s stamp tool, the chop, the arpeggiate, articulate and groove quantizing...respectively that everything is highly user customizeable via user defineable patterns (which no other DAW offers to this extend)...
...

RapidComposer (https://www.musicdevelopments.com/rc.html light version is enough) has all the chord related features so not so easy to drop out BWS just because of this and BWS supports Push (which has also has a very nice chord sequencer thx for Moss ) what is missing from both AL/BWS that's the MIDI orchestration related features (articulation handling etc.) at least AL has http://www.computermusicnotation.com/#Maxscore :"MaxScore provides music notation in Max and Ableton Live! Now with support for Arrangement Clips and MPE!"

[Trancit]

...
I more of a trancy guy... for me the most what matters are chords...their creating, handling and mangling... this is i.e. where FLS shines like the brightest star in the sky with it´s easy auditioning, it´s stamp tool, the chop, the arpeggiate, articulate and groove quantizing...respectively that everything is highly user customizeable via user defineable patterns (which no other DAW offers to this extend)...
...

RapidComposer (https://www.musicdevelopments.com/rc.html light version is enough) has all the chord related features so not so easy to drop out BWS just because of this and BWS supports Push (which has also has a very nice chord sequencer thx for Moss ) what is missing from both AL/BWS that's the MIDI orchestration related features (articulation handling etc.) at least AL has http://www.computermusicnotation.com/#Maxscore :"MaxScore provides music notation in Max and Ableton Live! Now with support for Arrangement Clips and MPE!"

Something like Rapid Composer immediately makes me despair and creates in me a strong urge to throw the computer out of the window and join a monastery.

When I try to handle these programms they must be named "Very Very Slow Composer with tears in his eyes"

People liking something like this must have a different type of understanding or are simply very masochistically inclined....