KVR Audio

basic channel · Post by **basic channel** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:16 pm

I just bought the Live In Pompeii dvd last Sat (haven't seen it for years).

I just love the way NM caresses the kit in such an apparently casual manner....lovely swishes/washes of cymbals.

How does he rate amongst the skinsman fraternity ?

BC

Muff Wiggler · Post by **Muff Wiggler** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:32 pm

I have always really really dug his style, in fact he's always been one of my very favorites. He is missing a lot of technical chops, but he has feel galore, which is more important IMO.

The old cliche about him (repeated by many of my skinsman kin) is to call him "ol' shoes in the dryer", and his fills in particular have this lopsided feel to them... in my opinion it's a perfect fit for PF's music, and thus he is doing the drummer's job perfectly.

great thread

Squonk · Post by **Squonk** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:48 pm

"ol' shoes in the dryer",

Best Description Ever!

- not heard that one before, but it describes NM's style perfectly.

basic channel · Post by **basic channel** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:57 pm

Muff Wiggler wrote:I have always really really dug his style, in fact he's always been one of my very favorites. He is missing a lot of technical chops, but he has feel galore, which is more important IMO.

The old cliche about him (repeated by many of my skinsman kin) is to call him "ol' shoes in the dryer", and his fills in particular have this lopsided feel to them... in my opinion it's a perfect fit for PF's music, and thus he is doing the drummer's job perfectly.

great thread

So you're saying that he's not technically particularly good ?

He plays (to my non-drummer eyes/ears) so languidly and (apparently) effortlessly on Live In Pompeii that he struck me as very adept....almost jazzy ?

Muff Wiggler · Post by **Muff Wiggler** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:58 pm

it's been a pretty common phrase in my experience, for the very reason that it's just about a perfect description of the sound of:

- A DJ f**king up a mix
- A drummer falling out of time
- Nick Mason's fills

Muff Wiggler · Post by **Muff Wiggler** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:02 pm

yeah he's 'technically' not very good, meaning his odd-time, polyrhythmic, etc. chops aren't up to par with jazz or fusion (bleh) drummers

but personally....who tf cares about that? A drummer is there to add a sense of time to the song, to play what fits the music, to have 'feel'

Guys like Nick Mason are proof that feel beats chops time and time again - and would you rather listen to PF's Meddle, or some 70's prog wankage, or perhaps 'Dream Theatre'? Feel baby, f**k chops. Chops with no feel is a million times worse than feel with no chops.

This is why, although I certainly am in awe of his skills, I derive no pleasure from Neal Peart (heresy from a canadian drummer like me, I know). You can program a drum machine to do exactly what he does. Give me Stewart Copeland, Manu Katche, Nick Mason, Tony Williams (yes most of these guys have chops galore, but even more feel) any day over mechanical Neil.

Roger Waters had a session guy do some of the drumming on The Final Cut, because Nick couldn't handle the stuff that wasn't in 4/4

I'm not knocking Nick Mason...as said he's one of my favorite (rock) drummers ever. I listen to a lot of bebop, and yeah, I'm looking for chops there, but not at the cost of feel, the most important element.

basic channel · Post by **basic channel** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:04 pm

Muff Wiggler wrote: Roger Waters had a session guy do some of the drumming on The Final Cut, because Nick couldn't handle the stuff that wasn't in 4/4

How many takes did he need for "Money" then

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:03 pm

it's very often the case that drummers who can play with great proficiency in live venues with the band (and after all that's how most of them get their 'training')
don't do as well in studio situations

with a band in a live venue skilled musicians are listening to one another and constantly compensating for a push or pull on the beat and dynamics.

in your modern studio, quite often, people play alone and put down tracks that some skilled engineer pieces together. listening to a metronome tick and some base recording isn't quite the same.

it's really almost a different skill set from the first, and I suspect it may come naturally to some more than others, though like everything else it can be developed through practice.

in my first local neighborhood garage band i played drums and had a better sense of where things should go than anyone else in that band. a few years later I sat in with more skilled players and imagine my shock when they didn't follow all my cues and I actually had to follow theirs. that's all in skill set one, i was never really tested in skill set two, but holding a rock steady beat across 32 or 64 bars isn't easy without any cues -- even in 4/4 -- and that's precisely what good studio drummers do.

mister bunko · Post by **mister bunko** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:53 pm

wrench45us wrote:it's very often the case that drummers who can play with great proficiency in live venues with the band (and after all that's how most of them get their 'training')
don't do as well in studio situations

with a band in a live venue skilled musicians are listening to one another and constantly compensating for a push or pull on the beat and dynamics.

in your modern studio, quite often, people play alone and put down tracks that some skilled engineer pieces together. listening to a metronome tick and some base recording isn't quite the same.

it's really almost a different skill set from the first, and I suspect it may come naturally to some more than others, though like everything else it can be developed through practice.

in my first local neighborhood garage band i played drums and had a better sense of where things should go than anyone else in that band. a few years later I sat in with more skilled players and imagine my shock when they didn't follow all my cues and I actually had to follow theirs. that's all in skill set one, i was never really tested in skill set two, but holding a rock steady beat across 32 or 64 bars isn't easy without any cues -- even in 4/4 -- and that's precisely what good studio drummers do.

For Pink Floyd to be truly transcendant as a rock band, i think a drummer with more fire would have been good. Mason's lack of versatility pretty much dictated what Floyd could do. He did influence their sound, of course, but I would have loved to have heard what an accomplished stick man would have done with some of those early tracks.

basic channel · Post by **basic channel** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:42 pm

mister bunko wrote:
wrench45us wrote:it's very often the case that drummers who can play with great proficiency in live venues with the band (and after all that's how most of them get their 'training')
don't do as well in studio situations

with a band in a live venue skilled musicians are listening to one another and constantly compensating for a push or pull on the beat and dynamics.

in your modern studio, quite often, people play alone and put down tracks that some skilled engineer pieces together. listening to a metronome tick and some base recording isn't quite the same.

it's really almost a different skill set from the first, and I suspect it may come naturally to some more than others, though like everything else it can be developed through practice.

in my first local neighborhood garage band i played drums and had a better sense of where things should go than anyone else in that band. a few years later I sat in with more skilled players and imagine my shock when they didn't follow all my cues and I actually had to follow theirs. that's all in skill set one, i was never really tested in skill set two, but holding a rock steady beat across 32 or 64 bars isn't easy without any cues -- even in 4/4 -- and that's precisely what good studio drummers do.

For Pink Floyd to be truly transcendant as a rock band, i think a drummer with more fire would have been good. Mason's lack of versatility pretty much dictated what Floyd could do. He did influence their sound, of course, but I would have loved to have heard what an accomplished stick man would have done with some of those early tracks.

Blasphemer !

Waters, Wright, Mason, Gilmour = Floyd

jens · Post by **jens** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:55 pm

let's take one of the classic 'the band kicks in'-moments: The quasi-chorus on 'us and them' - imagine how e.g. Bill Bruford would have destroyed the feel of the track...

Stupid American Pig · Post by **Stupid American Pig** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:57 pm

Its the same with Ringo- not a technical guy, but had a great feel. A day in the life or strwberry fields wouldnt have been the same with out him..

Sorry to hijack a PF thread with a beatles reference... :p

Squonk · Post by **Squonk** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:00 pm

basic channel wrote:
Blasphemer !

Waters, Wright, Mason, Gilmour = Floyd

Some would say Barrett had more than a little to do with it too!

mister bunko · Post by **mister bunko** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:12 pm

Squonk wrote:
basic channel wrote:
Blasphemer !

Waters, Wright, Mason, Gilmour = Floyd
Some would say Barrett had more than a little to do with it too!

Roger Waters telling people the band lacked cred without him is the height of hypocracy

the more I listen to Syd, the more I realize that.

Also, I anticipate the 'Ringo' gambit. Ringo posesed finesse, versatiliy, and he rocked the f**k out of some pretty hard Beatles stuff.
Mason was about on a par with Dennis Wilson as a drummer.

seamoss · Post by **seamoss** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:30 pm

I did think, though, that Pink Floyd died when Waters left.

Momentary Lapse of Reason, Division Bells......

Nick Mason was(is) a great drummer.....