Overpriced Spitfire products

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
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AngelCityOutlaw
Banned
216 posts since 4 Dec, 2017

Post Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:49 pm

koolkeys wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:03 pm
Please don't make yourself look bad by suggesting that HZ Strings can't get better string results than those. It's a whole different beast entirely. I own two of the three (I don't have Inspire), and The Orchestra, while a very fun and cool instrument capable of great things, just simply doesn't pass as a realistic orchestra when compared to most larger libraries. It's made for easy writing, but lacks a boatload of details that prevent it from doing more dynamic orchestral writing.

And as stated, NotePerformer 3 is excellent, but it's not a library like the others being discussed. It's a playback tool with sounds designed to interpret musical notation INSIDE one of the three big notation editors. I really wish they WOULD release it as a "library" or plugin to use in a DAW (which they kind of did with WIVI years ago, which NP3 is based on, but it lacked half the orchestra). But at the moment, it's not a replacement for orchestral libraries unless you ONLY use your notation editor to create fully-finished scores. And most people don't do that.
You have made yourself look bad by suggesting that realistic "sound" trumps authentic-sounding compositions. Sure, a bunch of string pads and slow legato lines with even Orchestral Essentials might "sound" more "realistic" than something else playing it back, but it will put your musicians to sleep if it ever gets recorded; make me a mockup of "Flight To Neverland" with Orchestral Essentials or Albion and see how fast the tables turn.

In certain business situations, that may be true that "realistic sound" is most important. But for the craft, and music industry as a whole, it certainly does not.

Yes, the strings in Albion or the legato in CineBrass sound better than something like NotePerformer. But if a mockup that sounds as good and as consistent as the Star Wars theme does in NotePerformer 3 has been made with Albion or whatever, I have yet to find one. At a certain point, you've to start asking why that is.

When they're equally-priced, there's just no sensible reason to suggest Cinesamples over The Cinematic Studio Series, or Albion One over The Orchestra.

At the end of the day, and this is where I leave you, you have to ask yourself what kind of composer you want to be. One who limits themselves to whatever some recording snippets played by a machine can do so that you won't be "found out" for using said samples. OR, you can elevate your craft by writing as if you were for real musicians, as the masters of the past, whom we owe everything to, did.

https://www.robin-hoffmann.com/dfsb/inf ... mposition/

and if you choose the latter option, there is software that is much more useful in realizing such works, and often for much lower prices than "high-end" orchestral libraries.

User avatar
Harry_HH
KVRAF
4057 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:01 pm

Mr Arkadin wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:12 pm
Harry_HH wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:14 am

b. Only fraction of the note time values expected, most of the grid value-slots are ”empty”, i. e. no samples (remember, that one of the main points of the library are repetitions in different note time values,
I see you're disappointed and that's fine, but what led you to 'expect' anything other than what's stated in the manual: duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet. There's a difference between expectation and promises.

If they promised something that wasn't there then that would be false advertising, and they'd have been called out on it. As it is, I'd say that unfortunately you picked the wrong library. I have this library, but it's not where I would have started (and didn't - I started when they first offered and amazing deal on the wonderful Chamber Strings). Kepler feels more like an additional library than a main one to me.

Anyway, in terms of pricing think it's worth mentioning that Spitfire offer 30% discount to students and educators. These guys are not evil or trying to dupe you.
Do you really know the Kepler product, or are you just defending the Spitfire, by telling untruth things, like above.

You say e.g.
”I see you're disappointed and that's fine, but what led you to 'expect' anything other than what's stated in the manual: duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet. There's a difference between expectation and promises.”

The truth: there are no duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet in most of the instruments. E.g. High string momentum, high string pulsing momentum instruments have only half and quarter notes included, rest of the samples are empty (!), although the grid is the same and lets expect all time values.

And more: the grid is most awful UI, changing time values by mouse is pain. No resizable grid-UI.

I could go on and on.
Kepler is most unfortunate, and absolutely the worst investment of 100+ libraries I’ve purchased.

Please, if you comment technical details of the Kepler, find out first what you are talking about.

Mr Arkadin
KVRAF
1592 posts since 11 Mar, 2003

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:15 am

Harry_HH wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:01 pm
Do you really know the Kepler product, or are you just defending the Spitfire, by telling untruth things, like above.

You say e.g.
”I see you're disappointed and that's fine, but what led you to 'expect' anything other than what's stated in the manual: duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet. There's a difference between expectation and promises.”

The truth: there are no duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet in most of the instruments. E.g. High string momentum, high string pulsing momentum instruments have only half and quarter notes included, rest of the samples are empty (!), although the grid is the same and lets expect all time values.

And more: the grid is most awful UI, changing time values by mouse is pain. No resizable grid-UI.

I could go on and on.
Kepler is most unfortunate, and absolutely the worst investment of 100+ libraries I’ve purchased.

Please, if you comment technical details of the Kepler, find out first what you are talking about.
Umm... I have Kepler here on my computer, but go ahead and call me a liar if it makes you feel good. I never said anything about all articulations having all those meters. The way you worded your initial response I took a different meaning to what you have now stated and now understand what you mean.

I don't think it helps the discussion that you obviously have some hostility towards Spitfire based on one product. I guess as an owner of many of their products (and many other manufacturers so no need for fanboy accusations) I have more of an overall view of the company, rather than just of this one product. I'm not too sure yet what you were expecting from this library, I certainly got what I expected from the walkthrough videos, etc. You obviously didn't, but I don't think this one experience naturally leads to the conclusion that all their products are overpriced.

I agree on the GUI, I'm not a fan and I hope they improve them over time. I think they're in their Apple-minimalist phase and hope that enough complaining from users will get them to adjust in future.

As I said, I wouldn't have picked this a first library, and I can understand some disappointment, but I really can't see how you can't get some use out of it, I find it it quite fun to just play around with. My main issue with it is that it's quite RAM intensive and I get pops and crackles, so I need to upgrade parts of my system.

User avatar
Gamma-UT
KVRAF
5417 posts since 8 Jun, 2009 from UK

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:28 am

AngelCityOutlaw wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:49 pm
You have made yourself look bad by suggesting that realistic "sound" trumps authentic-sounding compositions. Sure, a bunch of string pads and slow legato lines with even Orchestral Essentials might "sound" more "realistic" than something else playing it back, but it will put your musicians to sleep if it ever gets recorded; make me a mockup of "Flight To Neverland" with Orchestral Essentials or Albion and see how fast the tables turn.
And there is the core of the problem with your argument. You believe the claim of what you need for film music is a claim of what you need for all film music. Albion isn’t going to do John Williams style voice leading for individual instruments and no-one has ever claimed it will. However, what media composers do find is that it does the job for building atmospheres and supporting themes, often in short cues. Or maybe it provides some block-chord orchestral backing for a song.

However, you take this idea and wail about stuff being overpriced in general because it doesn’t support what you want in particular. I’m not even sure it’s what you want rather than providing the opportunity to go on a rant about films and games not having ‘Proper Music’, because that seems to be the thrust of your claims of these tools not being “musically useful”.

If you want “proper” orchestral simulations, go VSL. You’re going to love the pricing on that. But it’s still more accessible than hiring a room full of musicians, which appears to be the only level of quality you will accept. Maybe with better AI you’ll get what want at that ‘right’ sale price. But don’t hold your breath.

User avatar
Gamma-UT
KVRAF
5417 posts since 8 Jun, 2009 from UK

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:01 am

stearine wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:02 pm
Gamma-UT wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:47 pm
What point is that exactly? You’re not doing very well on specifics.
That is accurate. Since you ask twice, this time without provocation, I can believe you're giving me the benefit of doubt so I shall return the favor and assume you're sincere. I can attempt to rephrase and/or elaborate what I believe the point is, but since AngelCityOutlaw already dissected the whole scheme like a surgeon I can't promise it's not going to sound like echoes. I'll need to get at a keyboard to write anything but snarky oneliners though and that won't be today.
Here, let me help you out with the process as it appears to be a little tricky for you.

Q: Are Spitfire products overpriced?

A1: Yes, because they have flaws

A2: No, they get the job done and get the money in because directors just want a bit of backing for the stuff they consider important

ACO: WHY AREN’T YOU BETTER COMPOSERS!!??

I wonder who is missing the point in this thread.

User avatar
Harry_HH
KVRAF
4057 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:06 am

Mr Arkadin wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:15 am
Harry_HH wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:01 pm
Do you really know the Kepler product, or are you just defending the Spitfire, by telling untruth things, like above.

You say e.g.
”I see you're disappointed and that's fine, but what led you to 'expect' anything other than what's stated in the manual: duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet. There's a difference between expectation and promises.”

The truth: there are no duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet in most of the instruments. E.g. High string momentum, high string pulsing momentum instruments have only half and quarter notes included, rest of the samples are empty (!), although the grid is the same and lets expect all time values.

And more: the grid is most awful UI, changing time values by mouse is pain. No resizable grid-UI.

I could go on and on.
Kepler is most unfortunate, and absolutely the worst investment of 100+ libraries I’ve purchased.

Please, if you comment technical details of the Kepler, find out first what you are talking about.
Umm... I have Kepler here on my computer, but go ahead and call me a liar if it makes you feel good. I never said anything about all articulations having all those meters. The way you worded your initial response I took a different meaning to what you have now stated and now understand what you mean.

I don't think it helps the discussion that you obviously have some hostility towards Spitfire based on one product. I guess as an owner of many of their products (and many other manufacturers so no need for fanboy accusations) I have more of an overall view of the company, rather than just of this one product. I'm not too sure yet what you were expecting from this library, I certainly got what I expected from the walkthrough videos, etc. You obviously didn't, but I don't think this one experience naturally leads to the conclusion that all their products are overpriced.

I agree on the GUI, I'm not a fan and I hope they improve them over time. I think they're in their Apple-minimalist phase and hope that enough complaining from users will get them to adjust in future.

As I said, I wouldn't have picked this a first library, and I can understand some disappointment, but I really can't see how you can't get some use out of it, I find it it quite fun to just play around with. My main issue with it is that it's quite RAM intensive and I get pops and crackles, so I need to upgrade parts of my system.
I don’t like the hostile tone, either, and patronizing comments, like ”I see you're disappointed and that's fine, but what led you to 'expect' anything other than what's stated in the manual: duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet. There's a difference between expectation and promises”, won’t help, especially if these are misleading.

As said, I’ve been contact in the Spitfire support, and given them opportinity to make this paying customer happy.

My ”hostility”, as you put it, started after the process I tried to solve things directly with the developer. The only thing I got there, was empty words, no advice, no promise of the better.

You said that one should not base the opinions for one product. Maybe so, but should I then go and buy an other expensive Spitfire library, and try my luck?
If I buy the Mercedes 250 cdi, and it shows to be a crappy car, should I say, ”this was just bad example”, and buy next the Mercedes 320 cdi?

I think that the client has right, and as a good Forum member, is even obligated to share the experience of the product, with his fellow musicmakers.

I have not said only ”Spitfire is overpriced”, but given the detailed explanation what is wrong, in my experience.

This is, after all, one of the main purpose of these Forums, sharing the user experience. Maybe this affects in the long run to the developers, as well.

User avatar
Gamma-UT
KVRAF
5417 posts since 8 Jun, 2009 from UK

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:06 am

Harry_HH wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:06 am
I don’t like the hostile tone, either, and patronizing comments, like ”I see you're disappointed and that's fine, but what led you to 'expect' anything other than what's stated in the manual: duplet, triplet, quintuplet and septuplet. There's a difference between expectation and promises”, won’t help, especially if these are misleading.
It's good to see irony isn't dead.
Harry_HH wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:06 am
You said that one should not base the opinions for one product. Maybe so, but should I then go and buy an other expensive Spitfire library, and try my luck?
Those are two different issues. You make the sweeping claim that Spitfire products are overpriced (for everybody) based on one you don't like. And then when you get challenged on it you resort to classic motte-and-bailey tactics about whether you personally should feel safe in buying another. I think it's fairly safe to say: no, you shouldn't. It's clear that things Spitfire feel are part of the product are things you don't want to see. I don't think it takes a genius to work out that expectations are at odds.

There are a lot of orchestral libraries out there. I have no idea why you bought this or what you thought you were going to achieve with it but I would assume there is something, somewhere that fits better with what you want to see.

User avatar
Harry_HH
KVRAF
4057 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:30 am

Gamma-UT wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:06 am
...

There are a lot of orchestral libraries out there. I have no idea why you bought this or what you thought you were going to achieve with it but I would assume there is something, somewhere that fits better with what you want to see.
Oh dear, if you don't understand the thread, maybe you shouldn't comment that.

But you can try to understand by reading it once through.

User avatar
Gamma-UT
KVRAF
5417 posts since 8 Jun, 2009 from UK

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:44 am

Harry_HH wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:30 am
Gamma-UT wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:06 am
...

There are a lot of orchestral libraries out there. I have no idea why you bought this or what you thought you were going to achieve with it but I would assume there is something, somewhere that fits better with what you want to see.
Oh dear, if you don't understand the thread, maybe you shouldn't comment that.

But you can try to understand by reading it once through.
Please point me to where you explain, in this thread, what you aimed to achieve with this library. All I can find is a reference to libraries you apparently were happy with - pretty much all of them are quite different to Kepler. Particularly Emotional Cello.

With the exception of some of the libraries in KU (eg Action Strings), the ones I see you were satisfied with were not the more ostinati-oriented category into which Kepler fits.

If you were comparing Solo Strings, Studio Orchestra or Symphonic, there is at least a better basis for comparison.

I understand it's the fashionable thing to do in this thread but, if you're going to play the "you didn't understand" card, come better prepared.

Also, given that it's a paragraph that just says "maybe Spitfire isn't for you, don't fret it", it's an odd one to select to make that claim in the first place, so maybe invest a little more in trying to understand what people are trying to tell you.

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Harry_HH
KVRAF
4057 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:18 am

I didn't use that "card", it was you (" I have no idea why you bought this or what you thought you were going to achieve with it...").

I don't know what "fashionable" is in this thread, I rather had been happy with the Spitfire poroduct, and not started the thread.

The list of libraries I put are examples of products I fancy, everyone with interest can benchmark what kind of UI and library implementation are OK in my opinion. The idea is not, that the content of those examples should be similar to Kepler - there are several generic good library feature, e. g. one is intuitive and logical UI, easy to use, one is good oranganization and the structure, sampling quality, innovativines and so on. I have documented in this thread, which part of the Kepler do not reach those criteria, in my opinion.
Last edited by Harry_HH on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gamma-UT
KVRAF
5417 posts since 8 Jun, 2009 from UK

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:19 am

Harry_HH wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:18 am
I didn't use that "card", it was you (" I have no idea why you bought this or what you thought you were going to achieve with it...").
Wat?

I'm guessing you inferred the most negative connotation possible from the comment (which frankly does seem to be your MO most of the time). I simply meant that I don't know what you wanted from the tool and so can't make any assessment of a similar tool that might do the job - because the information isn't available.

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Harry_HH
KVRAF
4057 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:51 am

Sorry, I didn't understand that your comments above are just bashful, polite remarks, which have honest desire to help me solving my dilemma.

Mr Arkadin
KVRAF
1592 posts since 11 Mar, 2003

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:57 am

Harry_HH wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:51 am
Sorry, I didn't understand that your comments above are just bashful, polite remarks, which have honest desire to help me solving my dilemma.
I'm not sure what help anyone can give. The GUI is not great but is still useable (I agree with you, but theres no reason to let it be a showstopper). I've even told Spitfire how I feel face to face at one of their soirees, as did others I noted. We can live in hope. I would say it's early days for the app and I'm sure they will improve the GUI and add features along the way.

You find the presets too low in volume. I do not. Cant please all the people call the time it seems. Perhaps resave the lowest presets with the volume slider turned up. Again don't let it be a showstopper. Or turn the gain up on the DAW channel for the whole instrument and save that as a DAW preset?

Missing time meters? Well only Spitfire can add that. I doubt they're holding back on any extra recordings for this library. Again I'm not really sure what you expected from this library, what niche you were trying to fill, but it doesn't seem it would ever have satisfied you even with the other meters included.

As to your perception that their products are overpriced, I cant help there either. I've already said you can't base that on one library, but equally I do not expect you to buy more libraries to change your view. Once bitten, twice shy.

I understand your frustration. I've had experiences like this with other products, and I had to take it on the chin as a learning experience and never used that manufacturer again. However in that case it left me unable to use one product at all. At least you could get some use out of Kepler I'm sure.

stearine
KVRist
165 posts since 6 Jun, 2019

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:31 pm

koolkeys wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:50 pm
I assure you, I found it funny.
It's just that I don't believe you because you don't sound like you're having fun. That's all. Really.

koolkeys wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:50 pm
But I'll be here. Just not sure there will be much worth waiting on if your last couple of posts are anything to go by.
As much as I care and want to rant about this topic (not being sarcastic!) I don't have enough time. But you're right and I should have kept my mouth shut until I had that time. So I apologise for my unproductive remarks with misdirected anger that were born more out of frustration toward something else entirely than yourself, and will try to find the time.

User avatar
AngelCityOutlaw
Banned
216 posts since 4 Dec, 2017

Re: Overpriced Spitfire products

Post Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:49 pm

Gamma-UT wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:28 am
AngelCityOutlaw wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:49 pm
You have made yourself look bad by suggesting that realistic "sound" trumps authentic-sounding compositions. Sure, a bunch of string pads and slow legato lines with even Orchestral Essentials might "sound" more "realistic" than something else playing it back, but it will put your musicians to sleep if it ever gets recorded; make me a mockup of "Flight To Neverland" with Orchestral Essentials or Albion and see how fast the tables turn.
And there is the core of the problem with your argument. You believe the claim of what you need for film music is a claim of what you need for all film music. Albion isn’t going to do John Williams style voice leading for individual instruments and no-one has ever claimed it will. However, what media composers do find is that it does the job for building atmospheres and supporting themes, often in short cues. Or maybe it provides some block-chord orchestral backing for a song.
and the core problem of your argument is that Albion One markets itself as "all you need" for film music. Yet, notice in your very post, you claim the opposite...

Those libraries that can do "John Williams" style can play the same kinds of music being written with the likes of Albion One; doesn't work the other way around though.

Yet, Albion One is still priced as much or greater. These things are supposed to emulate orchestras, are they not? What orchestra do you know of that is limited to block chords? The arguments defending this is simply coping and trying to justify having spent a lot of money on things that are actually pretty terrible. To everyone except boomers and Hollywood nepotists, paying as much or more, but for less content, is generally called "over-priced".

The Orchestra Complete — 399

https://youtu.be/4y949Bh2ydY

Albion One — 449

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pupyywf4ABE

Symphobia 3 — 439

https://youtu.be/JGoYbyKR2tQ

NotePerformer 3 — 150

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzvYRy_w6bc

BBC Orchestra — 1000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnK28k5GGiU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B49AQdh1sTw

Enjoy your 500 - 1000 dollar string ostinatos and brass braaahms, boys!

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