Cubase SX3 vs. Sonar 4

[electrik]

Are you saying SX3 doesn't 'sound' as good as SX2???

Rather important I would think... Can anyone else confirm?

I noticed SX2 sounded better than SX1/VST32, & was relieved since Logic _sounded_ better than Cubase at the time. If SX3 is a step back that would be over for Cubase for me.

Perhaps it's the groove/time stretching engine, I think Live suffers from this a bit. Not as punchy in the bottom end etc. Am also thinking will check out Samplitude v8 for sound quality, even though it's only 24bit max. It just looks more pro also.

[kuniklo]

This is only partially correct. Although the automation follows events option doesn't apply to vsti data (because VSTi is not the MIDI event), you can copy vsti automation, cut & paste, etc....

Also, I prefer that the MIDI automation and the VSTi automation are seperate. It's much more versatile that way. The idea that the MIDI data has anything to do with the vsti automation has always seemed a little odd to me.

You can manually copy and paste the automation data, but this quickly becomes unmanageable and tedious. Grouping it all seems like a good solution but the automation only moves with the grouped clips if the automation lanes are expanded fully, which essentially makes it useless.

Logic gives you the option of doing it the manual Cubase way or letting the computer handle it for you. The advantage of letting the host handle it for you is that you can start playing a vsti like an instrument instead of a machine. The changes you make to filters, envelopes, pan etc played live become part of the performance the same way a bend or hammer is part of a guitar performance. Midi notes and automation data aren't simply related, they're part of a whole. If I sweep up the filter right after I hit a chord I want those events to stay associated because I played them that way for a reason. This is the key point I want to make here - I'm not particularly interested in a lot of direct editing of automation, but I *require* a host that records and tracks the automation I play live properly. Doing it by hand isn't playing any more - it's working.

There are a lot of things I like about Cubase but its automation handling is not one of them.

[neptunefix]

From what I can tell, SX2 has a barely noticeable clearness advantage over SX3 as far as low end goes. Perhaps something to do with the mix/sum bus?

OOPS! I meant SX2 sounded better to me (barely) than SONAR 3. Sorry about the typo/confusion.

[mojkarma]

In Sonar 4, you can copy the freeze track in any audio track and use them as audio clips.

This is maybe thruth, but I understand freeze as what the name says: freeze. It is there to free up your cpu sources. Otherwise you can bounce your track and do with it what you want.

I would never need a pencil for drawing automation data, there are enough types of curves you can use there.

The pencil is a great tool to quickly adjust for example volume automation (where you act like a compressor). It is done far easier then with making three nodes and moving the middle one down. Besides that, Sonar is the only sequencer that still doesn't offer this way of work, so I suppose that a lot of people want this. It was one of the desired feature from the users for sonar4.

And I never would need any of the other features mojkarma listed

Never say never

Regarding the workflow: I absolutely don't have any problem with sonars workflow. If the workflow is right, one will adapt to it sooner or later. Personally, I evaluate a workflow (whatever it means) by how easily and how fast I can do things I want to. If in one program i can do something with one click and in the other I have to do 4, 5 or more clicks than I prefer to choose the first one.

I just want to advice somebody how already uses cubase to stay with it because sonar simply doesn't offer all the features (I listed just some in my previous post that sonar lacks).

[zammo]

I'm still using Logic 5 pc!!.. admittedly I'll have to change at some point ... I like the look of Tracktion seems nice and simple.

[Andrew Milne]

Does the piano roll hold up to the key editor in Cubase?

In my opinion no, nowhere near.
I'll list things that sonar is missing: you cannot mute notes, you cannot split them, there is no object editor just above the pianoeditor, you cannot change as fast values in sonar as in cubase, you cannot shorten/lenghten multiple notes at onec, you cannot resize the controller pane, you cannot see multiple controller panes. If you want to edit notes in sonars pianoroll you always have to switch between the tools: for example: the selection tool only selects the notes. In cubase with the selection tool you can select notes but you can also shorten/lenghten the note(s) without switching the tools. And in Sx3 when you move your mouse to the controller pane it can automatically switch to a pencil tool and you can edit your controller data. Sonar doesn't show note names in the note brickets and sonars step editor is not a part of the pianoroll. The only advance in sonar that I can see is that it has a scrub tool to hear the midi notes as you move the cursor over the notes.

Overall you made a lot of good points in your post, but I just wanted to correct wrt to changing length (or velocity) of multiple note selections -- this is possible using the Event Inspector toolbar -- type in a percentage increase, or a +/- tick amount, and it is applied to all selected notes.

[Sascha Franck]

Overall you made a lot of good points in your post, but I just wanted to correct wrt to changing length (or velocity) of multiple note selections -- this is possible using the Event Inspector toolbar -- type in a percentage increase, or a +/- tick amount, and it is applied to all selected notes.

OMG - why would you need to think about percentages or ticks??? And why would you even need to point your mouse to just another window?
That's just as lame as it could get. I want to select a bunch of notes and just lengthen them, with full visual control on what I'm doing.
That's why Logic's Matrix editor is unbeatable so far. You select a bunch of notes and lengthen them. And that's all about there's to do. No funny additional info boxes, no lanes, no nothing, just stretch them by grabbing their right or left border, perfect (in addition, all percentual or tick based options are possible as well)!
Steinberg and Cakewalk should finally get things right and steal/adapt the important things rather than just implementing some new but half-assed features.

[visa tapani]

It's odd that this one hasn't been mentioned yet:

- In SX3 Insert effects are not movable (ie you can't change their order)!

This is pretty big deal to me. I actually haven't used Sonar, but AFAIK they are freely rearrangable in it...

[griels]

Overall you made a lot of good points in your post, but I just wanted to correct wrt to changing length (or velocity) of multiple note selections -- this is possible using the Event Inspector toolbar -- type in a percentage increase, or a +/- tick amount, and it is applied to all selected notes.

OMG - why would you need to think about percentages or ticks??? And why would you even need to point your mouse to just another window?
That's just as lame as it could get. I want to select a bunch of notes and just lengthen them, with full visual control on what I'm doing.
That's why Logic's Matrix editor is unbeatable so far. You select a bunch of notes and lengthen them. And that's all about there's to do. No funny additional info boxes, no lanes, no nothing, just stretch them by grabbing their right or left border, perfect (in addition, all percentual or tick based options are possible as well)!
Steinberg and Cakewalk should finally get things right and steal/adapt the important things rather than just implementing some new but half-assed features.

You can lengthen notes just by group selecting and doing the exact same in Cubase. However (at least by default) this is a linear change in length (not fractional)... Maybe there's a key combo that can do fractional too.. Not sure.

And I thought this was an SX versus Sonar thread, not a L*g*c versus SX?

[Sascha Franck]

And I thought this was an SX versus Sonar thread, not a L*g*c versus SX?

I was only referring to the Sonar way of doing things. I know SX is almost there too. Still, could need some improvements regarding key edit.

[griels]

And I thought this was an SX versus Sonar thread, not a L*g*c versus SX?

I was only referring to the Sonar way of doing things. I know SX is almost there too. Still, could need some improvements regarding key edit.

Ah OK

[spritex]

You might also want to consider Logic, although you have to spend some $$$ on a Mac to run it.

I seriously think that Logic 5.x on PC is still a viable choice (if a Mac is out of the question). I wonder if you still get the Logic PC when you buy the new Mac version?

There are only a couple of features that are missing, like freeze. But if you have a fast enough computer, you don't need freeze. It kinda forces to not to make your tracks too cluttered.

IMHO, Logic 5.x MIDI editing and arranging features are better than in any other PC host, even with the new versions.

Admittedly, if you mostly use your host for multitrack recording and mixing it's not the best choice. But if you actually _compose_ new songs with the computer...

Oh, and most of the problems with new plugins and lack of MIDI control in insert FX can be remedied with Chainer, EnergyXT or somesuch.

I was browsing the Sonar 4 new features and there some of them were already in Logic years ago.

Also, somebody said that Samplitude has all that Logic has. No, it's MIDI editing features are rudimentary compared to Logic.

[mojkarma]

That's why Logic's Matrix editor is unbeatable so far. You select a bunch of notes and lengthen them. And that's all about there's to do.

Steinberg and Cakewalk should finally get things right and steal/adapt the important things rather than just implementing some new but half-assed features.

I don't see the difference here between Cubase and Logic: you can edit the notes you previously selected. I'm not sure but I think this is at least possible since sx1 if not earlier.
But it is another story with Cakewalk and the question here was about the difference between sonar and sx. Cakewalk didn't changed anything regarding the pianoroll view or the way how to edit midi since proaudio six are even earlier. Absolutely nothing, and this is way I don't use it anymore. They always put some long waited features into the package and voila: a new sonar version appears!
The only advance that I see in Sonar is the possibility to reorder (and copy) plugins and a slightly better bussing structure. Just look at sonar4 feature list: 99% of the new features are part of cubase for a time. I don't want to thrash sonar but I'm asking myself: was it so difficult to improve the midihandling or some workflow artifacts in the last year they worked on sonar4? Generally, you can do the same on Cubase and on Sonar, but the way to do things is much longer in Sonar then Cubase,..., and time is money.

[Forever Sun]

"spritex"]

There are only a couple of features that are missing, like freeze. But if you have a fast enough computer, you don't need freeze. It kinda forces to not to make your tracks too cluttered.

I'm not being funny , but If I decide to use ten instances of the mega CPU monsters ( z3ta+, Rhino, Tassman, etc, etc) will my track get cluttered ? Don't see the logic in that paragraph. Just a thought.
I, myself, can't wait to update to Sonar 4 just to get a one button freeze ( as you know it had it for many years, albeit, implemented in a 'few-clicks' fashion).

I haven't yet tried heavy midi editing in Sonar, but I'm a bit sad to hear that Sonar's midi editing in the Piano Roll view isn't up to scratch ( when compared to Cubase, as somenone has mentioned earlier).

[spritex]

I'm not being funny , but If I decide to use ten instances of the mega CPU monsters ( z3ta+, Rhino, Tassman, etc, etc) will my track get cluttered ? Don't see the logic in that paragraph.

In my experience, a 3+ GHz P4 has so much power that if one doesn't go overboard with simultaneous synths, one rarely needs freeze. Think of a band for example, how many instruments are usually playing?

Also, I like the idea of having everything realtime and MIDI editable the whole time.

Anyway, there is still bounce for those moments when you absolutely need to free some CPU. Think of it as a not so handy freeze.