Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

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cptgone
KVRAF
5573 posts since 1 Aug, 2003

Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:28 am

I make music on my own, and have been going hardware lately, adding more and more pedals to my setup for a more out-of-the-box experience.
I've been recording straight to my audio interface, at times using an AMT F1 as 'clean' pedal platform, and I own pedals that offer Marshall and Vox overdrive/distortion.

I recently bought a cheap Mesa Boogie Rectifier drive pedal, but was then told plugins are way better.
So I'm wondering, is there any pedal that matches software? Or are they just convenient?

- I like the idea of seeing guitar and pedals as one instrument, and use my DAW simply to record that.
- I also like the idea of overdriving the 'amp' before the sound enters the digital domain (if I get it right, some amp sims offer a way to simulate that, with an input gain control - but it would be nice to have pedals and 'amp' simply interact in the analog domain).

(In case you're wondering, the cheap pedal is a €24.9 b-stock Harley Benton California TrueTone - a short test ride left me liking it. If, say, a discounted/used AMT R2 were to surface, I'd be tempted. I also own PA's bx_megadual plugin. A real amp is out of the question)
14" purple vibrator wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
blah blah as usual....

lfm
KVRAF
5201 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:43 am

Some hybrid route maybe - amps with emulations of amps and stompboxes.
I have a Fender Superchamp X2 head, which are discontinued.

It's not bad at all - and you can through the Fuse software load various stomp boxes into amp - and available with knobs on amp. I took a series of amps I liked - and also made copy of the same but with compressor and delay pedal as well etc. So on knob on amp I have this and still bass and treble, and the effects are also selectable to download reverb etc.

But think the Mustang series superseeded that Fuse based concept - and software is called something different today.

And the Mustang series are assume are having even more of computer added stuff like speaker emulations etc.

Not sure what amps are there if Mesa at all, but would not be surprised if extended this quite a bit from what I saw with Fuse software.

I think there is something similar in Avid Eleven amp.

CapnLockheed
KVRAF
2307 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from Central NY

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:03 pm

Superchamp X2 Superchamp VS Mustang series

Apples and Oranges. The Superchamp and Vibrochamps in the X series are all TUBE with the addition of DSP FX. The Fender Mustang, Cyber, G-Dec series are pure digital MODELING amps. Comparing these two types of amps is like comparing a fish to a bicycle.
the secrets to old age: Faster horses, Richer Women, Bigger CPU's

https://soundcloud.com/cristofe-chabot

lfm
KVRAF
5201 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:54 pm

Superchamp - it's all digital preamp - and power tubes stage.
I modified it to have a fx return into power stage - to get a fender power amp in my setup with patch bay - doing any preamp out into any power amp. So looking at circuit diagram it's just a digital chip in preamp.

But still thought I mention it as requested by OP - and find modelling rather ok. So gather Mustang series is not worse. If taking line out on Superchamp it's all digital. It's been a while since running the Fuse software, so don't remember if Rectifier is there.

Mustang LT 25 has 20 amp emulations and cost like one pedal. And more hands on having a floor board and this amp - probably good value. Did not see software that replaced Fuse - but thing it would not be worse.

EDIT:
This link explains LT25 is only what is there from start. Larger models like GT with bluetooth use the Tone Amp app.

https://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=116448

EDIT2: Two models are based on rectifier for LT 25.
"90S ROCK Based on the Mesa Dual Rectifer, which featured distinctive
distortion that shaped the “nu-metal” sound"

"ALT METAL Based on the distinctive nu-metal-defining distortion of the Mesa Dual Rectifier, gated with a very fast attenuation curve especially ideal for high-gain metal"

I love the physical stomp boxes on floorboard and then a Laney Ironheart Studio, Marshall Origin, Koch StudioTone and Superchamp - patch bay setup. Sonic lab kind of. But this happend after my trip in the box with amp sims - but might be better amp sims today.

A weber load box, and radial jdx di-box over that load. Really nice sounding and all quiet.
https://www.tedweber.com/

But this was my path. Many are pleased with amp sims it seems. Tried with tube preamps like Damage Control Womanizer to get guitar signal a little beefier before into computer, but still not there. So went all the way.

Ivan_C
KVRian
1099 posts since 11 Aug, 2004 from Breuillet, France

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:29 am

Honestly, it’s difficult to say if pedals match software, and there are tons of different sounds which could be referred as « Mesa » even if they are not like what you mean and what you need. I would say the best thing is to have the choice and to make a lot of experiments with all the combinations you have access to. I own Amplitube 4, Mercuriall Reaxis, they are my way to go for that kind of sound. But often I make comparisons with my AMT R2 and my Two Notes LeLead, and I might use them instead with the free poweramp sim TPA1 from Ignite Amps. And I always use the same cab sim or a real poweramp with my 1x12 V30 cab to listen to the differences between the solutions.

imrae
KVRian
936 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:55 am

A dual rectifier has a lot of features, it's difficult for a pedal design to provide the same range of capability as a plugin. On the other hand, by focusing on a particular area they can give a quicker workflow.

Megadual is a pretty good plugin, how much have you experimented with the channels, vintage/modern, spongy etc. options? What setup do you like?

(I do find that it puts out a lot of bass that needs cutting in the mix, but apparently the real cab does that too?)

User avatar
cptgone
KVRAF
5573 posts since 1 Aug, 2003

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:48 am

I realise "Rectifier sound" isn't as clearcut a description as one might like, but my experience with it is limited to an old line6 emulation.

@lfm: I'm not looking for an amp at the moment, but perhaps I should, one day (your suggestion of using a load box would make that feasible). BTW, I still own my line6 Flextone II, but I've no room for it, and suspect it's dated (it cannot be updated either, the required part is sold out).

@ Ivan_C: thanks, I'll keep looking for an AMT R2 then, I'd like to have a hardware option.

@imrae: haven't experimented at all, just went through the presets. I liked those, I've liked every Rectifier emulation I've heard so far.
14" purple vibrator wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
blah blah as usual....

User avatar
cptgone
KVRAF
5573 posts since 1 Aug, 2003

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:11 pm

Little update that may be of interest:
AMT added a tube preamp product line to their ambitious Bricks "platform".
The R/S Lead emulates both Mesa Boogie and Soldano:
https://amt-sales.com/preamps/bricks-preamps/rs-lead/

Little update on my little quest:
- I tried to buy a used Two Notes Cab M, failed.
- I watched this old vid and now I'm thinking I may like AMT's B2 (Bogner) even better than their R2. I own a Bogner fuzz and an OD, i like both a lot for their fat sound.
And I'm slightly puzzled by today's comment that "4 years later and they all sound distinctly different. Some totally different". Might AMT have been making improvements, or adapting to changes in the parts market?
14" purple vibrator wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
blah blah as usual....

lfm
KVRAF
5201 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:14 pm

Overall very versatile distortion Elektron Analog Drive
https://www.andertons.co.uk/elektron-an ... n-stompbox

No clue how close to any rectifier though.

8 different analog circuits for distortion, bass, treble and parametric sweepable mids, save 99 presets to recall. Also midi control if useful.

imrae
KVRian
936 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:15 am

cptgone wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:11 pm
And I'm slightly puzzled by today's comment that "4 years later and they all sound distinctly different. Some totally different". Might AMT have been making improvements, or adapting to changes in the parts market?
I'd guess this is a comparison between e.g. the S1 and S2; the 2 range are supposed to be improved?
lfm wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:14 pm
Overall very versatile distortion Elektron Analog Drive
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.andertons.co.uk/elektron-an ... pbox</span>

No clue how close to any rectifier though.
I have one of these. The high gain mode can do some rectifier-like saturated fizz things. If OP can give an example of what sort of dual rec tone they are after, I can give an opinion on whether the Analog Drive will do it.

User avatar
cptgone
KVRAF
5573 posts since 1 Aug, 2003

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:59 pm

lfm wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:14 pm
Overall very versatile distortion Elektron Analog Drive
https://www.andertons.co.uk/elektron-an ... n-stompbox
8 discrete analog OD/distortions in 1 box? Nice. I have most of those bases covered though.
14" purple vibrator wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
blah blah as usual....

User avatar
cptgone
KVRAF
5573 posts since 1 Aug, 2003

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:21 pm

imrae wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:15 am
cptgone wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:11 pm
And I'm slightly puzzled by today's comment that "4 years later and they all sound distinctly different. Some totally different". Might AMT have been making improvements, or adapting to changes in the parts market?
I'd guess this is a comparison between e.g. the S1 and S2; the 2 range are supposed to be improved?
The vid is 4 years old, the comment brand new. So as I understand it, it concerns the 2nd gen pedals from the vid.
imrae wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:15 am
lfm wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:14 pm
Overall very versatile distortion Elektron Analog Drive
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.andertons.co.uk/elektron-an ... pbox</span>

No clue how close to any rectifier though.
I have one of these. The high gain mode can do some rectifier-like saturated fizz things. If OP can give an example of what sort of dual rec tone they are after, I can give an opinion on whether the Analog Drive will do it.
Sorry, I've no clue. All I can say is I've liked every emulation I've tried (an old line6 algorithm, my HB/Joyo California Sound, the bx_megadual's presets), I'd have to dig deeper and at the moment my new guitar is making me play clean. Last night I compared my HB/Joyo pedal to my megadual plugin, and that lured me into another rabbit hole (comparing my noisy used AMT F1 to a plugin emulation of the same Fender Twin Reverb; comparing the F1's +4dB output to the -10dB output-with-infamous-cab-sim).

I started this thread wondering if it still made sense for me to consider a pedal/preamp/IR solution while I have access to plugins, and the answer seems to be yes. The Analog Drive looks interesting, but I think I'd prefer a more dedicated solution, as I already own many drive pedals.
14" purple vibrator wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
blah blah as usual....

User avatar
cptgone
KVRAF
5573 posts since 1 Aug, 2003

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:31 pm

My bid for a used Two Notes Cab M was successful after all, so I have lots of new nicknames-for-amps to decipher.
Lots of sounds to learn.
It's been ages since I last used IRs.

Of course my Harley Benton / Joyo pedal sounds much more tube-like, thanks to its analog firmware.
;)
14" purple vibrator wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
blah blah as usual....

lfm
KVRAF
5201 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:54 pm

When I fiddled with Izotope Trash v1.x long ago it was the box models - cabinets - that shaped the sound the most. The various distortion types and abilities to combine those did much less than I expected.

The general problem with IR's is that they are not dynamic - it's one timbre - you get one type of transform no matter how you play. It's probably Nebula and those kind of really cpu hungry plugins that try to morph many IR's to create different timbre for various levels to emulate how an amp respond. Maybe Two Notes did something like that. I looked at Torpedo pedal many years ago - but went other route.

I saw a demo of AXE FX, also long ago, where they picked a guitar sound they liked and sampled kind of - and created a preset. But it does not vary in how you play the original gear anyway. There are so many subtle things going on play a note on a guitar. IR pretty much create a machine gun effekt - repeating the same transform of each note. But other clever circuits around it can do dynamic eq to it to emulate the real thing.

A demo of Waves Q-clone, I think the name was, that let you create an IR from running signal through an amp or various sorts. But it respond to one particular setting of all eq etc - to know how it sounds at another eq setting - you have to use another preset you did. IR just transform in one way.

User avatar
cptgone
KVRAF
5573 posts since 1 Aug, 2003

Re: Rectifier sound: plugin or pedal?

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:39 am

Having been out of the game, I vaguely remembered IRs being static in some way. Your post was just what I needed, it seems - thanks.

The Two Tones cab M should help me get to know all those sounds better. It complements my AMT F1's weak spot. And it's fun, inspiring even.
I put pleasure out of the fact that the IRs give a good-enough approximation of the classics, more so than my main amp sim vst which isn't 100% geared for that.
14" purple vibrator wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
blah blah as usual....

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