Understanding electronic music composing.

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:02 am

The page also tells us that modal use is about melody.
(Newbs in these parts have shown to find chords easier to grasp, and it is def easier to teach than melody. So one wants the more familiar, ok. But you’ve barked up the wrong tree.)

One salient point in the Berklee entry is to avoid the tritone in a line. Owing to the Western entrained musician, this has the tendency, eg., F B in D Dorian magnetizes to E C and C major. There is a sign here that tonal harmony is not_the_thing.

Beyond this, modal use in The Holy Roman Church, in ICM, in Arabic and Persian CM, in “modal jazz” even is not about chords. In rock, it’s basically best w. two salient chords vamping.

I’m telling you the truth. There is zero in this for me past this.
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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:15 am

vurt wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:54 am
i think its a symptom of self teaching.
I only got tonal part-writing formally. Well, a smattering of Messiaen isorythm and we had to tap out Elliot Carter Canarios, metrical modulations on the desk one day. I was “Applied Music” for a major, meaning your emphasis was performance. And I dropped out.

I spent thousands of hours in the library.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
58741 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:20 am

ok then i have no idea what it is :hihi:

i just nesnt, its essy to think youve understood something, whereas if you have a "teacher" you can check.

teacher doesnt have to be a formal instructor, can be a bandmate even, or someone in a forum, pointing you in the right direction ;)

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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:45 am

Stamped Records wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:44 am
Right now you're picking bones with me about whether a mode has a root chord or not instead of hearing what I actually said to you. Modes are loosely categorised by the chord that 'would be/could be' built from their keynote. Nobody is saying it's a root chord in the true sense of the term so please quit it man. Go argue with Berklee.
Modes are_not categorized by chords. This is not true. It is a mistaken notion, which no one teaches. There is NO true sense of the term, there is no such term as root chord. You can do whatever from here, I don’t care in the least, but state falsely and keep doubling down, this happens. no one has to ‘quit’ because you cannot stand to be wrong. No one is mishearing but you.
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jancivil
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19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:48 am

vurt wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:20 am
ok then i have no idea what it is :hihi:
a cognitive bias in which one assesses their cognitive ability as greater than it is
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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vurt
addled muppet weed
58741 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:51 am

jancivil wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:48 am
vurt wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:20 am
ok then i have no idea what it is :hihi:
a cognitive bias in which one assesses their cognitive ability as greater than it is
i meant the misunderstanding, not so much the refusing to accept that you misunderstood.

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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:52 am

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Forgotten
KVRAF
8460 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:54 am

We are all probably guilty of thinking we understand more than we actually do to some extent.

Some considerably more than others though...

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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:56 am

It’s not hopeless per se, D-K Effect. It is a vicious circle, and very common.
To remedy one’s mistaken assessment of one’s competence is to obtain the competence, which may mean starting from a blank slate and “Ok, I really don’t know.”.

I check before I assert, even when I’m familiar with the material, because I might have missed something.
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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:50 am

Because there is absolutely no demand to build triads created by modes in themselves, or the choice to deploy one, the statement modes have a tonic triad per se just doesn’t follow.

Tonic chord in C Lydian could be C F# B as far as I am concerned.
The M3 fails to give us the identity Lydian just thru itself. Read the Berklee entry, which instructs to use all seven tones. Now think about that. You need all seven for it to be that thing.
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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:09 pm

I wanted to get into the problem of ‘what theory’ and the question of genre and misapplication (essentially a question one cannot expect to sort absent more experience), so this
Forgotten wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:51 am
Stamped Records wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:10 am
Forgotten wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:29 am
The same language does not describe both.
Ok, so a note in a melody has nothing in common with a chord and there is no way to relate the two to eachother and to the chosen scale using language like rhythm, interval, scale degree, accent, leading tone etc.
should, I think, as a <for the better good> kind of proposition, be addressed.

The concept of dissonance of scales appeared the other day here.
The conception of this begins from a degree of a scale related to its tonic. Interesting, though I never thought like that.
This is a vertical ideation of tones, ie., tones sounding at the same time. Now it may work so that the memory of a tone amounts to the impression of a clash, but vertically this is literal while horizontally it is an impression or let’s say less-than-concrete. Perhaps fleeting...

It should be examined via examples to even argue it, methinks.
But let’s first examine the concept: EG., the major seventh is generally described as one of the definitely dissonant intervals. Vertically.
B from the C below.. Now, in isolation, maybe one perceives C, quick leap up a M7 to B similarly to the vertical phenomenon.
... now in a scale:
Let’s go with C harmonic minor to follow what was mentioned by Michael. B vs C is really a bit of a red herring.

NB: B is a relatively consonant M3 to G; a relatively consonant M6 to D; Eb v. B is a +5, by itself not diff sounding than a m6. And an aug 2nd to Ab, but which by itself sounds like a m3, vertically. NB: the aug 2nd melodically is a thing which isn’t about the vertical sonority, evidenced by tons of modal scales which feature it.
Yes, v. F we have the tritone. Vertically 1/3rd of this thing is really dissonant, then.

So, it would seem clear that a dissonant scale is 1) not the same thing as a dissonant vertical sonority, and 2) except for a ‘two note scale’ might be for the most part not even about a dissonant sound vertically.

So, the terms are not really interchangeable like that. I have demonstrated how “interval” does something re a vertical construction that doesn’t work for one note at a time in a line.
To review, the fact of a M7 in a scale is not in itself the problem of sounding a M7 simultaneously.

Terms like “leading tone”...
One may not grasp this at all, but B in a C scale is a leading tone specific to certain musics, ie., a concept which works in tonal music, but in itself does_not amt. to an axiom for music as a whole.
I touched on this earlier, positing the possible difference between Major Scale and Ionian Mode. The Bilaval Thaat (parent to ragas) from C is C D E F G A B. Yet, the music in a real raga, the composition, will be designed with specific contours and moves; rules. ‘You never do __’; you must do __’.

And as it turns out, ‘B’ there is often not headed to C directly or at all. Where E is vadi (say, monarch), B is samvadi (say, minister to the monarch). Important. We find plateaus. We find hanging out at ^7 luxuriantly at times, or #4 in Kalyan fam. So, the goals for real modal music are quite different than those for tonal harmonic music.*
(This travels to the West, eg., Frank Zappa’s Watermelon in Easter Hay is E Ionian. The first thing you hear is D# over IV, A major. It’s not any leading tone. There is no V. IV - I, nada mas. The dominant/tonic paradigm is_not_in_play. There is so much music where the terms from the one paradigm, from the one culture in the minority of this world’s offerings, do nothing.)

(*: Note well these terms have nothing at all to do with harmony. CF: “harmonic rhythm” means nothing with no harmony.)

One may care not a whit about this, but there is music in this world that is strictly from linear/horizontal, where the terms from the West and harmonic usage have no meaning, and vice versa where eg., vadi has no application or close equivalent.

You understand comparatively very little, but are so sure you have it all sussed.
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Ghost Snake
KVRist
128 posts since 16 Oct, 2009 from Italy

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:25 am

lol the OP fleed at page n.2, 11 pages of digressions between music theory nuts. I wonder if anyone even bothered anwering his question in the first place.
I am musically schizophrenic

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Forgotten
KVRAF
8460 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:04 am

There was an attempt to answer the question (or at least to get more information on the problem), but it’s not easy to answer a question while inaccurate information is being fed to the OP. It might seem like a lot of derailing, but there’s a lot of useful information in the thread.

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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:26 pm

How long do you think people with real interest should stick to the original question, for the sake of f**k
What was the question? Was there a music theory question? What’s your answer?
Do you have anything or does it suit you to just be a dick?
So much for your first day of school, yeah? “lol”

There are some very thoughtful replies. I don’t mean me, but I seem to recall really wasting some time sorting out ’music starts from...’ but then there was a brouhaha from a moderator regarding alienating newbs so I replaced that w. my genuine thought on If I can express this in a piano roll with a mouse, I prefer to take this shortcut. as though to avoid becoming a musician

feel free to read what interests you, you know...
but thanks for saving me time in future :tu:
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jancivil
KVRAF
19406 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Understanding electronic music composing.

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:10 pm

Forgotten wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:04 am
There was an attempt to answer the question (or at least to get more information on the problem), but it’s not easy to answer a question...
The OQ entailed <at one time midi was considered important, but then it was about tracks with no music and then somebody said start with chords but that wasn’t it>

So, unsure what expectations one would have for pg 10 re this “question”, lol...

People are individuals, I don’t really believe one could tell a person how to obtain a knack for melody if they don’t have it, unless the two people are identical. It isn’t coming from reading, or youtube tutes.
I didn’t look to music theory for it at all, I just did it.
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