What is the secret with Moog VCF?
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- Rad Grandad
- 38044 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
seriously, please stay on topic
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- Banned
- 7624 posts since 13 Nov, 2015 from Norway
If its got that monty python humour im sold
Im pretty sure it says Norway under my profile nameForgotten wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:45 pmMe too.
Not sure where you are, but I’ve been able to watch Spaced on Hulu here in the US.
Anyway i think Hulu is available on Xbox so of to watch spaced i guess 
EnergyXT3 - LMMS - FL Studio | Roland SH201 - Waldorf Rocket | SoundCloud - Bandcamp
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- KVRian
- 1346 posts since 26 Sep, 2002 from Montreal, CANADA
The secret to the (mini) moog filter is 1- resonance lowering as cutoff goes down 2- bass being removed as you increase resonance and 3- the cutoff following portamento/glide.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6427 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
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- KVRAF
- 2418 posts since 9 Nov, 2016
Well, I wouldn't call bass being removed (2) part of the secret, as in success, of the Moog filter.
It's no co-incidence that the pro3 introduced a 'boost' function to counter that, as have several software synths.
It's no co-incidence that the pro3 introduced a 'boost' function to counter that, as have several software synths.
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- KVRAF
- 35436 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
I wouldn't call any of those the "secret of the Moog filter". For me, it's rather a mixture of the general filter's character, the Moog envelopes, and the resonant behavior. Hard to describe more specifically, but, it has a unique creaminess, warmth, and simply sounds great.
The decrease of bass, or, rather, volume, is a unfortunate side effect, which I would definitely rate as a disadvantage. Unless you want to closely emulate the filter's behavior, I would get rid of it in software. Not a huge downer though. I wonder why Sylenth1 has the same though, it's really not something I'd emulate when I'd do a software filter, especially when it's not closely modelled, just like Sylenth1's filter is not a closely modelled ladder filter.
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- KVRAF
- 2418 posts since 9 Nov, 2016
+1chk071 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:15 amI wouldn't call any of those the "secret of the Moog filter". For me, it's rather a mixture of the general filter's character, the Moog envelopes, and the resonant behavior. Hard to describe more specifically, but, it has a unique creaminess, warmth, and simply sounds great.
The decrease of bass, or, rather, volume, is a unfortunate side effect, which I would definitely rate as a disadvantage. Unless you want to closely emulate the filter's behavior, I would get rid of it in software.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6427 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
But there are two ways to go
- increase of resonance let filter clip
- increase of resonance lower volume so it does not clip
and I don't think analog is prepared to lower volume for headroom and increase overall noise floor all the time.
Really common for digital as well, since you don't want to sacrifice a lot of volume unless there are peaks to handle within the digital realm.
Digital Hammond do as well if you add percussion, but also a setting not to do it if you prefer that.
Nordlead do it too, increase resonance and volume goes down.
Some may prefer Prophet sound to Moog, since as I read in thread that Prophet compensate bass when doing resonance somehow, if I got that right.
Listened to Pro 3 demo and it sounds really lovely too.
Some praise Oberheim for phat basses - so not sure how they differ in construction and characteristics?
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- KVRAF
- 35436 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
You're right, that's an issue. It's still preferable for me to a mostly quite significant loss of volume though.
I think a lot of soft synths do it by not lowering the volume that much. Or, the resonant peak isn't up to levels most analog synths go up to. Of course, that leads to a different filter characteristic, and, it's probably up to considertation whether or not you want it to be like that. Or... up to the skills of the developer.
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- KVRAF
- 2418 posts since 9 Nov, 2016
Problem:
This seems to be the problem.
This page suggests to use a resonant HPF to boost the bass.
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=154648
Actually, it's a common user trick on the MS-20 to use the resonant HPF in this way.
This seems to be the problem.
Solution:Urs wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:10 pm 4-pole ladder/casacde filters have a phase shift of 180° at the cutoff frequency but almost no phase shift towards the bass. Resonance is a negative feedback, which essentially creates a 360° phase shift, so it *adds* gain to the cutoff frequency while it deminishes gain pretty much everyhwere an octave or two away from cutoff - because there it really just subtracts the signal from itself.
This page suggests to use a resonant HPF to boost the bass.
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=154648
Actually, it's a common user trick on the MS-20 to use the resonant HPF in this way.
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- KVRian
- 1346 posts since 26 Sep, 2002 from Montreal, CANADA
The resonance sucking up the bass is quite nifty, desirable and by design I am sure.
Low end comes from the osc's not the filter anyways... resonance doesn't work well in the lows...raising the volume is much better here.
As the cutoff sweeps back and forth with resonance, you get bass or not depending. Interesting when there is no HPF. as you have a bit of control over bass.
I prefer other styles of filters most of the time as I tend to focus on oscillator stuff anyways,
Look at other synths if you want another character...plenty of other styles out there both analog and suctractive.
Low end comes from the osc's not the filter anyways... resonance doesn't work well in the lows...raising the volume is much better here.
As the cutoff sweeps back and forth with resonance, you get bass or not depending. Interesting when there is no HPF. as you have a bit of control over bass.
I prefer other styles of filters most of the time as I tend to focus on oscillator stuff anyways,
Look at other synths if you want another character...plenty of other styles out there both analog and suctractive.
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- KVRian
- 1234 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden
This is why most people use more than one synth
Different synths (whether hardware or software, analog or digital) all have a different character, even if they fundamentally have the same voice architecture (for typical subtractive synths anyway). Some high-end hardware synths and many plugins even offer multiple filter types so you can choose the most suitable one for what you're trying to achieve.
