Why you left Ableton?

[machinesworking]

We reinvented the wheel. It isn’t plugin because we call it device

I seriously wish all DAWs would get together and establish some basic rules for terms! MIDI regions are objects in Logic, Clips in Live, Items in Reaper etc. etc.

[Vladislav_Gronk]

That's the definition of cherry picking.

Those complaints seem pretty reasonable. You on the other hand are arguing about the look of the... device expansion icon?

The user literally clicks on that square thing once and learns that "oh, this opens the plugin window".

Read my initial post.
All I've been saying is that Bitwig has some UX issues that older DAWs have. Had you read that you would understand I never said it was unusable, I said it was a weird choice of icon, not great UX.

Again, what's with the cherry picking? Do you also think that monitoring is best served the way Live presents it, or Bitwig? Again, I'm looking at switching to Bitwig for the same sort of work I do with Live, I'm not "the enemy", but to pretend that UX wise Bitwig doesn't have weird snags when you first approach it is IMO just fanboyism, of the kind that Reaper has, where any criticism is met with circular arguments.

I'm saying that it's a button that has no universally agreed upon icon so a computer monitor makes as much sense as a wrench. You find it once, you know it forever.

[Dirtgrain]

Does anybody else have crashing issues with Ableton Live 10 Suite? I have too often. Switched to the stand-alone version of Max 8, as Abelton support told me to do. Still, weird problems. Projects I made in the version of Live before the most recent update--some of them (maybe 5% of them) crash immediately when I open them. Maybe they are lost for good. Also, a new bug I have is no matter how I close Live, on opening it the next time, it gives that prompt that Live crashed last time (even though it didn't), asking if I want to open the pre-crash version. Weird stuff. It's making me think of Cubase or Bitwig lately.

[machinesworking]

Does anybody else have crashing issues with Ableton Live 10 Suite? I have too often. Switched to the stand-alone version of Max 8, as Abelton support told me to do. Still, weird problems. Projects I made in the version of Live before the most recent update--some of them (maybe 5% of them) crash immediately when I open them. Maybe they are lost for good. Also, a new bug I have is no matter how I close Live, on opening it the next time, it gives that prompt that Live crashed last time (even though it didn't), asking if I want to open the pre-crash version. Weird stuff. It's making me think of Cubase or Bitwig lately.

Sounds like a settings/preference corruption issue. Don't know if you're on Mac or PC? but in OS X anyway there's a Preference setting for Live and any application really, that sometimes gets corrupted. Throwing out random crash alerts sounds like that sort of problem.

[machinesworking]

I'm saying that it's a button that has no universally agreed upon icon so a computer monitor makes as much sense as a wrench. You find it once, you know it forever.

Do you think Bitwig is impervious to UX blunders? Curious, because if you think UX isn't important, then that's that, nothing to talk about.

You and others chime in on one of many issues UX wise I pointed out. The one you think you have the most chance of pointing out as me being foolish, but this is to me anyway simply debate tactics, not about the topic as much as an emotional response to what's perceived as an attack.

Do you also think 1/4 screen faders are a good idea? There are plenty of undebatable points I brought up, and for people to freak out about me thinking a screen/monitor icon is a silly VST icon out of all the points I made screams more about the sensitivity people have to opposing opinions than anything else.

Plus, what are all you Bitwig fanboys doing defending Bitwigs honor™ in a thread about leaving Ableton for christs sake!?? Against percieved attacks by someone who just recently purchased and is using said DAW?

[Vladislav_Gronk]

Do you think Bitwig is impervious to UX blunders?

You and others chime in on one of many issues UX wise I pointed out. The one you think you have the most chance of pointing out as me being foolish, but this is to me anyway simply debate tactics, not about the topic as much as an emotional response to what's perceived as an attack.

Do you also think 1/4 screen faders are a good idea? There are plenty of undebatable points I brought up, and for people to freak out about me thinking a screen/monitor icon is a silly VST icon out of all the points I made screams more about the sensitivity people have to opposing opinions than anything else.

Plus, what are all you Bitwig fanboys doing defending Bitwigs honor™ in a thread about leaving Ableton for christs sake!?? Against percieved attacks by someone who just recently purchased and is using said DAW?

Jesus Christ. There are many things I don't like about Bitwig (and the faders are definitely one of them) but I just think that that icon is the biggest non-issue since I don't see any other icon that users would intuitively associate with opening plugin windows more (or less).

That's my opposing opinion to your post in this discussion forum so if that makes me a major fanboy then fine. I wish I was more of a fanboy tbh since I'm constantly switching between different DAW's but whatever.

[pdxindy]

... if they wanted a good choice it would have been a male electrical socket IMO.

Why? Doesn't make any sense...

Because VSTs and embedded instruments are plug ins, like an an electrical plug in. VST has used this for years. It's pretty straight forward. All of us have used an electrical cord. Something that looks like a plug rather than a computer monitor or window makes much more sense. The two prong version make the most sense but hey..

In Bitwig the Window Icon is not just for plugins but Bitwig Devices + Plugins... I'd say the window icon is a more accurate depiction of the function... but really does it matter?

[pdxindy]

Do you also think 1/4 screen faders are a good idea? There are plenty of undebatable points I brought up, and for people to freak out about me thinking a screen/monitor icon is a silly VST icon out of all the points I made screams more about the sensitivity people have to opposing opinions than anything else.

Sorry you are getting upset... I'm not freaking out... just talking about the subject. The icon is not a VST icon as it is also for Bitwig Devices too.

I think the faders should be adjustable so people can set them how they want. I would probably set them 50%+ bigger than now. However, I don't particularly mind them as they are. I can adjust them easily enough and the meters can be big. I do not find it any trouble to set them in 0.1 increments which is the smallest amount and more resolution than needed. The reason I would set them a bit bigger is for a bit more height reference. Otherwise I like the small size for less mouse movement.

I still find the smaller faders easier to see than the little arrow in Live. I always found that little arrow hard to see at a glance.

[Trancit]

nevermind...

[tooneba]

for plugins but Bitwig Devices + Plugins... I

icon as it is also for Bitwig Devices too.

See? We reinvented the wheel. We'll see Appliance, Box, Circuit, Processor next. We won't be able to use computer icon sooner or later

[antic604]

Right, and that explains why the same device is used for two distinctly different things.

No, the icon always means the same: "MIDI"
- in the browser it symbolises MIDI instruments
- in Inspector Panel's monitoring section it differentiates monitoring of MIDI and audio input

Like a lot of things, if you know the DAW you can do both, Live allows for two windows, so there's your two views, and there's a script to let you view the inserts.

What if you have single small screen like a laptop, though? The options.txt trick is deliberately kept there - the feature is super rudimentary & buggy that's why it's not officially available.

...Bitwig is very arguably worse than Live UX wise. The caveat to that is Bitwig looks to be from my observations much better once you understand it's UX, i.e. it's a bigger learning curve, but better user experience once you get over it's initial rough spots and idiosyncrasies.

Well, isn't that the case for most software? Especially in a field as abstract as music production? I really doubt you understood everything about Live first time you sat to it, not to mention that now you're looking at anything else through the lens of Live experience and its UI design paradigms. Which BTW (those paradigms) you'd surely call "rough spots and idiosyncracies" had you used other, traditional DAW before it.

That's the definition of cherry picking.

What is? The fact the GUI features I complained about aren't the same that you mentioned?

Oh, and with regards to VSTs being represented by male plug - even Steinberg doesn't do that. Also it would be an equivalent of using floppy disc icon for document saving function - most people in the last 10-15 years have no idea what it is & why it's there. They were just conditioned to click it to achieve certain result.

[antic604]

There are plenty of undebatable points I brought up, and for people to freak out about me thinking a screen/monitor icon is a silly VST icon out of all the points I made screams more about the sensitivity people have to opposing opinions than anything else.

How should I write my posts so that you don't take them as "freaking out"? Because from where I'm standing I'm not. I'm not calling you names, I don't invoke deities, I just try to have a civil discussion and exchange of opinions...

And on this particular issue, again - I'm not saying "screen/monitor icon" represents the VST as you try to imply I do. I'm saying the icon represents an action of "computer window popping up" (*) or "click this to see more in another window" AND it's applicable to both VSTs and numerous Bitwig devices, therefore a "male plug" or "wrench" wouldn't make sense for an Oscilloscope or FM-4. You are looking for a VST icon, Bitwig gives you "give me more of this device" and does so consistently (in this respect, at least).




(*) BTW, you not being on Windows is not an excuse to confuse icon representing "computer window" with "computer screen". Last time I checked windows in OSX also have a thicker header on the top:




Unlike a computer screens / monitors, that have a cheek at the bottom:

[V0RT3X]

I wonder if Bitwig Would add an update so the user can choose their own colours and icons.

Maybe something we could ask for?

[antic604]

I wonder if Bitwig Would add an update so the user can choose their own colours and icons.

Maybe something we could ask for?

If you dig deep enough, there's a "default.theme" file in one of the folders.

Currently changing it does nothing, but it means that they've been considering it at some point, perhaps already built some mechanisms for it to work and will unlock the feature in the future?

Now, I'm not sure how this will pan out. For instance the modularity we were promised was initially suggested to be something more similar to Max For Live, i.e. we'd be able to open existing native devices, build our own with dedicated control layout, etc. Instead we got Grid, which is awesome in its own right, but it's NOT what was promised. Similarly they always say the on-line collaboration features are built-in in the architecture of Bitwig, but - so far, at leass - there's nothing that'd suggest it is the case.

[oonabe]

I wonder if Bitwig Would add an update so the user can choose their own colours and icons.

Maybe something we could ask for?

Custom skins could be an interesting improvement for Bitwig, as they seem not to have hired a designer yet