Trying to refine my knowledge from just 'playing' on tracks to fleshing things out more as I start to wrap my head around the whole production aspect - most gain-staging tips I can find are specifically about mixing/mastering, but I'm trying to figure out the best way to do things from the start of recording.
So I have an Ableton track with a synth and a couple of effects (delay and reverb). Is there a better practice than just trying to control volume with each plugin's volume outputs - ie a limiter or a Hornet VU meter-type of plugin first in the effects chain (or last?)?
Best practices for gain-staging while recording in VSTs?
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- KVRAF
- 16826 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Naah, start with just the synth on the track (fader set to unity - 0dB) and no effects. Watch the level of the track, adjust it indeed with output volume control of the synth. If it's averaging (VU or RMS) around -20dB and peaks don't go over -6dB then that would be perfect. In the mixing process I usually set all track faders to -10dB.
Following this procedure you have plenty of headroom to play with, and all effects get an input level around the optimum level.
But you also should know that gainstaging inside a DAW is a bit moot. It does not matter (for sound quality) whether you crank up the level of the synth to +30 first and at the end reduce it, or vice versa: set the volume very very low and crank it up at the end.
One BIG exception is effects that are non-linear. That is: effects that react differently depending on the input level. Ofcourse compressors do this (think of the threshold level) but also everything that overdrives or saturates behaves different on a low level (remains clean) and a hot level (gets dirty)
Following this procedure you have plenty of headroom to play with, and all effects get an input level around the optimum level.
But you also should know that gainstaging inside a DAW is a bit moot. It does not matter (for sound quality) whether you crank up the level of the synth to +30 first and at the end reduce it, or vice versa: set the volume very very low and crank it up at the end.
One BIG exception is effects that are non-linear. That is: effects that react differently depending on the input level. Ofcourse compressors do this (think of the threshold level) but also everything that overdrives or saturates behaves different on a low level (remains clean) and a hot level (gets dirty)
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- KVRist
- 63 posts since 5 Dec, 2019
For me I typically sit around -23 to -18 dbfs with peaks hitting -12 to -10. That's for my signal with no plugins on. I make sure every plugin I'm using sits in the same area output wise so there's no real volume difference when they're off, just a tonal change.
If the source has really intense peaks I'll usually introduce some sort of clipper / saturator to tame those. Same rule applies in that I make sure the average level stays the same. With delays a reverbs I also make sure the source signal isn't sending unnecessary Low end into them. I'll use gentle high passing (depending on the source), or if the delay / reverb has a low cut, I'll use that to clean things up and get some headroom back.
If the source has really intense peaks I'll usually introduce some sort of clipper / saturator to tame those. Same rule applies in that I make sure the average level stays the same. With delays a reverbs I also make sure the source signal isn't sending unnecessary Low end into them. I'll use gentle high passing (depending on the source), or if the delay / reverb has a low cut, I'll use that to clean things up and get some headroom back.
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- KVRist
- 337 posts since 23 Apr, 2011 from Seattle WA
One rather odd Ableton thing I was alerted to years ago : the track volume faders negatively impacts the track's sound quality. Use the utility device instead.
Bear with me, (and this may be improved in V10, I never upgraded).
- Find a sample loop and duplicate it on two tracks.
- add a utility device on only one of the tracks.
- lower the volume on both tracks by 10-20% and then A/B compare them using the track mute and solo switches.
The difference was pretty dramatic on V8-9.
Figured that using the utility device was a good habit to get in to.
Bear with me, (and this may be improved in V10, I never upgraded).
- Find a sample loop and duplicate it on two tracks.
- add a utility device on only one of the tracks.
- lower the volume on both tracks by 10-20% and then A/B compare them using the track mute and solo switches.
The difference was pretty dramatic on V8-9.
Figured that using the utility device was a good habit to get in to.
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- KVRist
- 379 posts since 8 Sep, 2005 from Seattle
I'm not hearing a difference in Live 10. And if I flip the phase using the utility device the two tracks seem to null. Now I definitely remember hearing that clip gain adjustments were non neutral, but those also seem to null, now that I check it. Hopefully I'm not rehashing something that's already been... hashed. Guess I'm just hopeful my DAW is working the way I'd expect.Schmidi wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:16 am One rather odd Ableton thing I was alerted to years ago : the track volume faders negatively impacts the track's sound quality. Use the utility device instead.
Bear with me, (and this may be improved in V10, I never upgraded).
- Find a sample loop and duplicate it on two tracks.
- add a utility device on only one of the tracks.
- lower the volume on both tracks by 10-20% and then A/B compare them using the track mute and solo switches.
The difference was pretty dramatic on V8-9.
Figured that using the utility device was a good habit to get in to.
As far as general gain staging, I aim for -18db RMS with peaks no more than -6 dBfs. I try to maintain this at every stage. My understanding is this only matters for certain kinds of plugins that "expect" a certain input level, particularly compressors and saturators that were designed based on the paradigm of analog mixing where, e.g. 0 dBvu = -18 dBfs. Of course a lot of VST presets are really loud and I often wonder which plugins are designed to expect this vs. the "old school" levels. Usually the manual will tell you.