Why you left Ableton?

[machinesworking]

Oh and it's funny to me how you're really convinced that it's super important that I understand that it's a "computer window" icon. That the 64 pixel icon clearly has another pixel layer in the right area to denote it's a computer window and not a monitor.. because it again points out how unintuitive the choice was.

[Robert Randolph]

there is no confusion for anyone in Reaper or Ableton Live as to where the input monitoring is.

This is totally not true. It's one of the most common questions about REAPER (not just to me, but to the other reaper educators I chat with), and they went as far as to adjust the interface in this regard because of it.

REAPER's UX in general tends to be rather confusing for new users. It's somewhat overwhelming and tends to require that you know what you want to do, rather than knowing what you want to happen.

[antic604]

Oh and it's funny to me how you're really convinced that it's super important that I understand that it's a "computer window" icon. That the 64 pixel icon clearly has another pixel layer in the right area to denote it's a computer window and not a monitor.. because it again points out how unintuitive the choice was.

Sure it's important. It wouldn't make sense if it was "computer monitor", but it makes perfect sense if it's a "computer window". Because clicking it doesn't mean "show me another computer monitor". It means "show me more of this device in another window".

Perhaps you need to see the optometrist?

[machinesworking]

there is no confusion for anyone in Reaper or Ableton Live as to where the input monitoring is.

This is totally not true. It's one of the most common questions about REAPER (not just to me, but to the other reaper educators I chat with), and they went as far as to adjust the interface in this regard because of it.

REAPER's UX in general tends to be rather confusing for new users. It's somewhat overwhelming and tends to require that you know what you want to do, rather than knowing what you want to happen.

Yeah most things in Reaper are really confusing, the fact that until recently you had to set up every single thing about a track etc. I just didn't find the speaker icon for record monitoring that confusing, that's all. But to make your point, I still don't know how to have input monitoring work without record enabled in Reaper..

[machinesworking]

Oh and it's funny to me how you're really convinced that it's super important that I understand that it's a "computer window" icon. That the 64 pixel icon clearly has another pixel layer in the right area to denote it's a computer window and not a monitor.. because it again points out how unintuitive the choice was.

Sure it's important. It wouldn't make sense if it was "computer monitor", but it makes perfect sense if it's a "computer window". Because clicking it doesn't mean "show me another computer monitor". It means "show me more of this device in another window".

Perhaps you need to see the optometrist?

Yes, that's the proper response when it's obvious it's not intuitive to some people. Question their eyesight.

Plus, and let's go back to the gist of your argument here. OS X does not necessarily show the same sort of lower dock for menu items that you claim would denote a computer monitor, Almost no one I know that uses OS X places the dock on the bottom of the screen, and it's not a bar like it is in Windows. The menu however is always at the top of the computer screen, i.e. an icon for OS X of a monitor would look just like the icon used in Bitwig. What you think is intuitive is actually just specific to your OS choice. The main clue one would have coming from OS X that it's supposed to be a window not a monitor, is that Bitwig takes more from Windows than OS X, but none of that makes it intuitive for users of OS X.

I think it's clear we're not going to agree on this, and that it's getting to the point of pettiness. I don't think your point is invalid, but you certainly seem to think mine is, and apparently aren't interested in trying to understand why I would think that way, so we should just drop it. I'm certain there's plenty of room for agreement in the future etc.

[tooneba]

Oh dear, just remember the height.

Doesn't it for particular track, though?

That's why I like how Bitwig did it - if I want to edit in a small window (because I know it's enough) I just double-click the clip, but if I want big one I select the clip and Shift+Tab to full screen editor. Still not perfect, but a bit more predictable.

No ableton’s border place is affected across the all tracks. This is why there is endless click&drag fest in a single project.

[Jace-BeOS]

There’s actually a fairly common graphic to denote opening a window.



With or without the arrow. There are a number of versions of this out there. Semi-standard, like how we put an ellipsis at the end of menu items that will open a dialog or window.

However, if we are talking plugin control panels in specific, I personally find myself looking for an icon that looks like a hardware control panel. Knobs, sliders, and whatnot, or a rack-like icon, as found on Sonar (it opens the plugin “rack”, and then you double-click the row with the plugin you want). Granted the one in Sonar took me a while because Sonar was drowning in buttons, but once I knew which was which, I never struggled with it. Unlike on the Receptor GUI.

Receptor’s button for opening plugin editors seems to be one my brain will NOT learn. It’s too conceptually similar to the “select plugin from list” button right above it. They used an “E” to indicate “editor” but also a little plug graphic in the middle of it, which is ALSO found, in a different orientation, on the plugin selector list button right above it. Bad design, IMO.

On Logic, it’s the act of double-clicking on the name of the plugin itself, as a button in a channel strip (or single-clicking on a tiny graphic of sliders that appears over it in a rollover, added in Logic X, since these are already nonstandard, non-API widgets and never acted like Mac OS widgets prior to Logic X).

[Jace-BeOS]

...Almost no one I know that uses OS X places the dock on the bottom of the screen,

I know no one who does otherwise.

It’s the default location for the dock. Any graphical elements that are meant to reference things in the OS’s GUI ought to call on the default appearances when doing so.

I’ve only seen people move the dock elsewhere in occasional videos/screenshots online.

I have also never seen anyone move the Windows task bar anywhere else, despite being able to do so. These kinds of user customizations are almost never tested for, either, which is why I am resistant to using them myself (lesson learned back in my years of using Windows and making use of every customization I could).

[apoclypse]

Almost no one I know that uses OS X places the dock on the bottom of the screen, and it's not a bar like it is in Windows.

I do. I've never moved it anywhere else in all my years using macOS and I've been a macOS user since at least 10.2. I've seen some users put it on the side but I think that's stupid.

[/i]The main clue one would have coming from OS X that it's supposed to be a window not a monitor, is that Bitwig takes more from Windows than OS X, but none of that makes it intuitive for users of OS X.

I really wish you would stop generalizing or trying to pass off your opinion as fact. I'm a Mac user and I find this specific aspect of Bitwig far more intuitive than Live.

Now if you said dragging and dropping audio into a drum machine was unintuitive, or the way warp marker/onsets editing works is completely unintuitive I'd be right there with you.

An icon that looks like a window that after you click once is pretty much self explanatory, is the definition of intuitive imo. Not to mention that Bitwig helpfully displays SHOW PLUGIN WINDOW when you rollover the icon making it clear that it is in-fact a window icon and it will tell you what will happen when you click it. If you think that isn't the definition of intuitive, I'm not sure you know what the word means at that point.

Ableton chose to call their's Plugin Edit. So it makes sense in their case that it looks like a wrench. As in edit settings. But none is more intuitive than the other and your assertion to the contrary is pedantry at best imo.

[machinesworking]

Almost no one I know that uses OS X places the dock on the bottom of the screen, and it's not a bar like it is in Windows.

I do. I've never moved it anywhere else in all my years using macOS and I've been a macOS user since at least 10.2. I've seen some users put it on the side but that's stupid.

I always have it on the left side. Certain DAWs have you selecting things right near the bottom of the screen and it's too easy to accidentally call top the dock IMO.

[Teneyetus]

Stereo stems for mono instruments, bad.

I could never understand it (also with regards to Bitwig) - why is this considered "bad"?

If stereo sample has the same information on both channels it sounds EXACTLY the same as mono sample.

It’s not the end of the world if someone gives you stereo stems in mono. I like to work in pro tools. When someone sends me stems from Ableton, and they’re all stereo, It’s a minorly frustrating. I don’t necessarily want to use two pans to
Position something, and don’t want to be forced to figure out how wide a mono vocal should be if I start panning. Gives me the heebiejeebies about phase too when you start panning and having to select a “width” or delta between the two pans. I don’t understand all the relationships having to work with 2 pans creates, so I find working with a single pan on mono sources preferable. you can always split the stereo mono track into
Mono, but then are you losing anything? I don’t have a good answer for that either, but between the panning and just the thought of losing something when splitting into mono, I don’t love those stereo stems on mono sources.

That’s all. Not like I don’t use the two pan knobs all the time, but for me it’s not ideal.

[Trancit]

nevermind...

[tooneba]

One of the keystone that had been made ableton being attractive. The Simpler. How they ruined. <Vol.1> Envelope's preview scale

WTF? Time-axis scale isn't even matched...

[jonljacobi]

I never found Live remotely intuitive. Now that I know it decently, I do find it insanely quick. And extremely clever. I left it twice, now I’m basically hooked. But yes, there are issues here and there. Nothing’s perfect. I do wish they’d interact with the hoi polloi more.

[billybong]

One of the keystone that had been made ableton being attractive. The Simpler. How they ruined. <Vol.1> Envelope's preview scale

WTF? Time-axis scale isn't even matched...

Didn't read the whole thread - do you still use Live?