Isn't it called Simpler for long? Not Usable, right?jonljacobi wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:07 pmRuined? It’s now unusable?tooneba wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:32 am How they ruined <Vol.3> The Simpler. One of the keystone that had been made ableton being attractive.
Weird workflow
Now you are in Amplitude Env. tab
Let's play with other mode.
Ok, going back to Classic Mode.
Nice. Tab changed to Pitch Env. by itself.
Why you left Ableton?
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- KVRAF
- 1524 posts since 6 Nov, 2012
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- KVRist
- 413 posts since 29 Apr, 2019
I'm leaving for Reaper due to some strange audio shifting issues
Using VPS Scope showed me the problem I was having where the track I was working on didn't stay... well phased right.
Testing this what I did was first a simple kick and bass (Psy trance triplet bass) using a kick sample in simpler even in drum rack, then Serum for the bass and a flattened sample of the bass.
Turn the scope to read transients and the follow by beats. A psytrance kick and bass should trigger on point without shifting... It was constantly shifting and causing slight phasing problems.
Tried the same exact settings and test in Reaper 6... non rendered audio stayed fairly close with very very minimal shifting, rendered audio was locked in solid with 0 shifting
Also using some FX plugins in ableton didn't sound like they were correct while in Reaper sounded like they were supposed to and was a lot cleaner. (might be related to the issue I was having)
I kind of get stuck in ableton making random loops and really no further track making because the clip launch area, and Ableton Live is a cpu hog where as the same projects can run in Reaper with like a fraction of the cpu hit and with a bunch of Plugin Alliance plugins.
Using VPS Scope showed me the problem I was having where the track I was working on didn't stay... well phased right.
Testing this what I did was first a simple kick and bass (Psy trance triplet bass) using a kick sample in simpler even in drum rack, then Serum for the bass and a flattened sample of the bass.
Turn the scope to read transients and the follow by beats. A psytrance kick and bass should trigger on point without shifting... It was constantly shifting and causing slight phasing problems.
Tried the same exact settings and test in Reaper 6... non rendered audio stayed fairly close with very very minimal shifting, rendered audio was locked in solid with 0 shifting
Also using some FX plugins in ableton didn't sound like they were correct while in Reaper sounded like they were supposed to and was a lot cleaner. (might be related to the issue I was having)
I kind of get stuck in ableton making random loops and really no further track making because the clip launch area, and Ableton Live is a cpu hog where as the same projects can run in Reaper with like a fraction of the cpu hit and with a bunch of Plugin Alliance plugins.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8413 posts since 4 Jul, 2012 from Alesia
Interesting find, I've never really gotten that surgical with my audio when it comes to Phase issues.
As for Ableton using more CPU i think that's because it's designed for more "live" oriented pattern switching.
As for Ableton using more CPU i think that's because it's designed for more "live" oriented pattern switching.
MuzikFreq wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:08 am I'm leaving for Reaper due to some strange audio shifting issues
Using VPS Scope showed me the problem I was having where the track I was working on didn't stay... well phased right.
Testing this what I did was first a simple kick and bass (Psy trance triplet bass) using a kick sample in simpler even in drum rack, then Serum for the bass and a flattened sample of the bass.
Turn the scope to read transients and the follow by beats. A psytrance kick and bass should trigger on point without shifting... It was constantly shifting and causing slight phasing problems.
Tried the same exact settings and test in Reaper 6... non rendered audio stayed fairly close with very very minimal shifting, rendered audio was locked in solid with 0 shifting
Also using some FX plugins in ableton didn't sound like they were correct while in Reaper sounded like they were supposed to and was a lot cleaner. (might be related to the issue I was having)
I kind of get stuck in ableton making random loops and really no further track making because the clip launch area, and Ableton Live is a cpu hog where as the same projects can run in Reaper with like a fraction of the cpu hit and with a bunch of Plugin Alliance plugins.
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- KVRer
- 10 posts since 3 Oct, 2019
Still couldn't find a better DAW. I even finish my mixes on Ableton.
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- KVRist
- 413 posts since 29 Apr, 2019
V0RT3X wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:00 am Interesting find, I've never really gotten that surgical with my audio when it comes to Phase issues.
As for Ableton using more CPU i think that's because it's designed for more "live" oriented pattern switching.
MuzikFreq wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:08 am I'm leaving for Reaper due to some strange audio shifting issues
Using VPS Scope showed me the problem I was having where the track I was working on didn't stay... well phased right.
Testing this what I did was first a simple kick and bass (Psy trance triplet bass) using a kick sample in simpler even in drum rack, then Serum for the bass and a flattened sample of the bass.
Turn the scope to read transients and the follow by beats. A psytrance kick and bass should trigger on point without shifting... It was constantly shifting and causing slight phasing problems.
Tried the same exact settings and test in Reaper 6... non rendered audio stayed fairly close with very very minimal shifting, rendered audio was locked in solid with 0 shifting
Also using some FX plugins in ableton didn't sound like they were correct while in Reaper sounded like they were supposed to and was a lot cleaner. (might be related to the issue I was having)
I kind of get stuck in ableton making random loops and really no further track making because the clip launch area, and Ableton Live is a cpu hog where as the same projects can run in Reaper with like a fraction of the cpu hit and with a bunch of Plugin Alliance plugins.
I only get that way when I am working on something like the Kick and Bass and while I am working on it I notice something sounds like way off until I restart the loop.
On an interesting note is I did this same test in FL Studio....
Whatever voodoo magic they did without even rendering stayed locked the entire time.
Worst culprit was (drum roll) Maschine!
I'm thinking the more catered to live performances, the more this problem is a thing. (Don't know about reaper though... odd.)
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- KVRAF
- 5057 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
The magic they did is quite simple:MuzikFreq wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:23 am ...
On an interesting note is I did this same test in FL Studio....
Whatever voodoo magic they did without even rendering stayed locked the entire time.
...
It´s called "variable buffer size" ...
It´s a feature from the VST2 protocol and a big help in terms of timing (as well automation timing) as the plugin can process data in smaller chunks than just the general set buffer size of you audio interface...
Sadly as some developers are too lazy or perhaps sometimes too silly to implement this feature properly in their plugins it gives much problems with certain plugins ( in fact quite a lot of them...)
As said this isn´t IL´s fault but the fault of the plugin developers ...
However, as you already noted, this isn´t very noticeable most of the time and as some developers constantly ignores this feature, (I think all) other DAW developers didn´t implement this at all respectively developed their own method which works not 100% but better than having nothing...
So do some DAWs have a better "phase timing" than others without having the same trouble like FL Studio...
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- KVRist
- 413 posts since 29 Apr, 2019
Trancit wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:32 pmThe magic they did is quite simple:MuzikFreq wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:23 am ...
On an interesting note is I did this same test in FL Studio....
Whatever voodoo magic they did without even rendering stayed locked the entire time.
...
It´s called "variable buffer size" ...
It´s a feature from the VST2 protocol and a big help in terms of timing (as well automation timing) as the plugin can process data in smaller chunks than just the general set buffer size of you audio interface...
Sadly as some developers are too lazy or perhaps sometimes too silly to implement this feature properly in their plugins it gives much problems with certain plugins ( in fact quite a lot of them...)
As said this isn´t IL´s fault but the fault of the plugin developers ...
However, as you already noted, this isn´t very noticeable most of the time and as some developers constantly ignores this feature, (I think all) other DAW developers didn´t implement this at all respectively developed their own method which works not 100% but better than having nothing...
So do some DAWs have a better "phase timing" than others without having the same trouble like FL Studio...
in FL Studio I have no problems. Same synths and samples used in Live 10 no matter if just samples or Midi triggered it staggers all over the place, and in Reaper, it only staggers very very little in midi but is locked when using samples.
I would love to try this in Cuebase but I don't own a license for that as well as Bitwig.
EDIT: To Clarify, I am running Windows 10 on a Dell Insperon 7577 gaming laptop with a DPC latency that skims by just barely which might be the case? I don't know.
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- KVRAF
- 5057 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
On this site: https://support.image-line.com/action/k ... e/?ans=145
Are the plugins listed making trouble... everytime when the solution is: "Use fixed size buffers" this means that the plugin developer was too lazy or not able to implement the VST2 specs correctly...
If you don´t own any of these plugins you shouldn´t run into trouble anyway... while some seem to miss there... afaik Synthmaster 2.xx and Synthmaster One need fixed buffer size too
Why not just use the demo to find out??? In Cubase the Elements version should be enough to test and doesn´t need a dongle and Bitwig is easy to test anyway...I would love to try this in Cubase but I don't own a license for that as well as Bitwig.
After all:
Be sure you don´t make to much hassle out of this issue... often render to audio, cut to the best part and use the audio is enough to fix this problem as well as you can check too Phase alignment plugins like i.e. https://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/ or https://www.forward-audio.com/phase-ali ... timealign/ ...
I think instead of changing the DAW which can bring you easily into trouble in other parts as no DAW is perfect you should definetely consider working more with rendered audio instead as this is the most accurate method anyway for phase sensitive sub parts...
Not only flaws in the DAW but every processing can cause subtle phase issues and rendered audio and manual aligment is the cheapest and most save way imho...
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- KVRist
- 413 posts since 29 Apr, 2019
Trancit wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:12 pmOn this site: https://support.image-line.com/action/k ... e/?ans=145
Are the plugins listed making trouble... everytime when the solution is: "Use fixed size buffers" this means that the plugin developer was too lazy or not able to implement the VST2 specs correctly...
If you don´t own any of these plugins you shouldn´t run into trouble anyway... while some seem to miss there... afaik Synthmaster 2.xx and Synthmaster One need fixed buffer size too
Why not just use the demo to find out??? In Cubase the Elements version should be enough to test and doesn´t need a dongle and Bitwig is easy to test anyway...I would love to try this in Cubase but I don't own a license for that as well as Bitwig.
After all:
Be sure you don´t make to much hassle out of this issue... often render to audio, cut to the best part and use the audio is enough to fix this problem as well as you can check too Phase alignment plugins like i.e. https://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/ or https://www.forward-audio.com/phase-ali ... timealign/ ...
I think instead of changing the DAW which can bring you easily into trouble in other parts as no DAW is perfect you should definetely consider working more with rendered audio instead as this is the most accurate method anyway for phase sensitive sub parts...
Not only flaws in the DAW but every processing can cause subtle phase issues and rendered audio and manual aligment is the cheapest and most save way imho...
Oh wow, I didn't know of this list.
Haven't really tried using Spire in it but Serum's issue isn't the same and Serum's issue looks like an AMD problem.
Thanks for this link.
Also I do tend to render the audio but when Ableton has the issue even with rendered audio I think I will go back and use FL Studio since I have had it for a long while now.
Also FLEX seems pretty nifty which just comes free for FL users.-
- Banned
- 182 posts since 28 Dec, 2016
1. Difficult to move around large amount of tracks to arrange.
2. Everything is cramped into one screen making it difficult to read along with tiny font.
3. Looks to be upgrading every two years at $100+.
4. Update features not substantial.
5. Takes forever to load empty, let alone a full track.
6. The piano roll is super difficult to work with largely because it sits in its own window at the bottom of the screen.
7. There is not a advanced audio editor within Ableton Live.
8. Get stuck making loops rather than full compositions.
9. For orchestra work it's essentially useless.
10. A lot of bloat in Live Suite in terms of packs, etc.
2. Everything is cramped into one screen making it difficult to read along with tiny font.
3. Looks to be upgrading every two years at $100+.
4. Update features not substantial.
5. Takes forever to load empty, let alone a full track.
6. The piano roll is super difficult to work with largely because it sits in its own window at the bottom of the screen.
7. There is not a advanced audio editor within Ableton Live.
8. Get stuck making loops rather than full compositions.
9. For orchestra work it's essentially useless.
10. A lot of bloat in Live Suite in terms of packs, etc.
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Funkstar De Luxe2 Funkstar De Luxe2 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=470881
- KVRist
- 55 posts since 21 Jul, 2020
There's a number of reasons I'm stuck with Ableton.
1) I made a test jig and took MIDI jitter measurements of all the most common DAWs. Ableton had the most consistent MIDI. This is super important to me
2) External hardware - all my synths and effects can be saved as little preset that I can just drag onto a track. They are sample accurate and delay compensated,
3) Freezing and printing tracks in place with hardware synths or effects. Not found anything that ca do this so easily and naturally.
4) Really good stability with MacOS and the few AUs I use.
I've customised it to get rid of the silly colours and barrage of shit samples and effects. It now looks nice and clean and shows me only what I want. There's a lot of ways it could be improved, but for me it suits my needs well.
1) I made a test jig and took MIDI jitter measurements of all the most common DAWs. Ableton had the most consistent MIDI. This is super important to me
2) External hardware - all my synths and effects can be saved as little preset that I can just drag onto a track. They are sample accurate and delay compensated,
3) Freezing and printing tracks in place with hardware synths or effects. Not found anything that ca do this so easily and naturally.
4) Really good stability with MacOS and the few AUs I use.
I've customised it to get rid of the silly colours and barrage of shit samples and effects. It now looks nice and clean and shows me only what I want. There's a lot of ways it could be improved, but for me it suits my needs well.
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- KVRAF
- 2140 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA
I tried Live once back on version 8, and it was so different from Cubase and Studio One, which were my mainstays back then, it just didn't take with me. Then I started with Bitwig 1.x and was looking forward to version 2. But it skewed off into sound creation land and I came back to Live for a little bit. Then I spent about a year in Logic before I finally realized that Live fit me best by far. Logic is the only other DAW I ever use and that's not all that often.
That's kind of odd because I almost exclusively record and edit. No EDM, not performance, etc. I think the ability to quickly see and correct a minor flaw in the timing of the performance is a huge deal, but it's really that once I was used to it, I found it quicker to set up and record parts that with any other DAW. There are of course things I don't like about it, and have some wishes, but it gets me from point A to point B without a lot of distractions.
What really got me to stick the last time was discovering ways (AutoHotKey, and Keyboard Maestro) to define more one-finger keyboard commands. With a guitar or bass in hand, the multi-finger key commands were an obstruction.
Not saying Live is better, it's just the easiest for me. I also master my stuff in it. Soup to nuts.
That's kind of odd because I almost exclusively record and edit. No EDM, not performance, etc. I think the ability to quickly see and correct a minor flaw in the timing of the performance is a huge deal, but it's really that once I was used to it, I found it quicker to set up and record parts that with any other DAW. There are of course things I don't like about it, and have some wishes, but it gets me from point A to point B without a lot of distractions.
What really got me to stick the last time was discovering ways (AutoHotKey, and Keyboard Maestro) to define more one-finger keyboard commands. With a guitar or bass in hand, the multi-finger key commands were an obstruction.
Not saying Live is better, it's just the easiest for me. I also master my stuff in it. Soup to nuts.
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- Banned
- 9081 posts since 15 Oct, 2017 from U.S.
I'm stuck on Live (with a side of FL) because I took to the way it's laid out pretty easy. I'm more of a 'stick to the final build of 8 until 10 is about to become 11,then update to 10' kinda guy
I'll probably get set in my 10 ways then update when they go 12 or give up on numbers & unleash some variation on the name
I'll probably get set in my 10 ways then update when they go 12 or give up on numbers & unleash some variation on the name
Don't feed the gators,y'all
https://m.soundcloud.com/tonedeadj
https://m.soundcloud.com/tonedeadj
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- KVRAF
- 2140 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA
I should also mention that the scalable interface is also huge for me. Others have that now, but back in the day it was a real selling point. With my minimal needs, interface has a lot to do with what I like.
