Changing key in a song

[NoirSuede]

Hi,

I am sure its probably on here, but I was wondering if some one can help. I have the Camelot wheel and was wondering if that shows the proper way to change to and from your current key.

Say for ease C major is related to A minor, but is that the right way of key changing or is there another way?

Please keep this in lame men terms LOL

There's no limit to which keys can change into each other! As long as you connect them with a transition of a couple of chords that both of those keys naturally have (so no Eb9s or G#7s), you're good to go.
For example, in this piece i'm trying to change from C major to F minor:



Basically what's happening is that I've dedicated the entire second bar to transition between C Major to F Minor, but you can transition with just 1 chord too.

Sang this all through in my head and thought....'what the hell?'

Took it to the piano in case I was having a crazy moment and played it through...'what the hell?'

I'm sorry, it makes no sense at all!

Ooops, I guess that was too hard, here's a much simpler version:



It's still the same idea as the last one, but now there's no weird stuff to worry about.

[ChamMusic]

Ooops, I guess that was too hard, here's a much simpler version:

Nothing too hard about it, believe me...

I'm more than capable of simply looking at a two part line and hearing it in my head with serious accuracy + I played it through on the piano anyway to check!

Just so you know my experience level, I studied an academic music degree at University many years ago (specialising in Composition) and have been a professional composer and teacher of music up to undergraduate level for the best part of 30 years.

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever and neither does the second image.

For a start, the chord labels, (whether in C major or morphing to F minor) are NOT correct...

First chord BAR 1 = a C maj 7 chord in first inversion, NOT I7

There are a number of other chords where the labels are 'odd' at best. Personally I would say - simply 'inaccurate'.

It is also a seriously convoluted, and for me, weak modulation from C major to F minor....two closely related keys where modulation is generally quite straightforward.

Maybe I'm missing something?

[NoirSuede]

Ooops, I guess that was too hard, here's a much simpler version:

Nothing too hard about it, believe me...

I'm more than capable of simply looking at a two part line and hearing it in my head with serious accuracy + I played it through on the piano anyway to check!

Just so you know my experience level, I studied an academic music degree at University many years ago (specialising in Composition) and have been a professional composer and teacher of music up to undergraduate level for the best part of 30 years.

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever and neither does the second image.

For a start, the chord labels, (whether in C major or morphing to F minor) are NOT correct...

First chord BAR 1 = a C maj 7 chord in first inversion, NOT I7

There are a number of other chords where the labels are 'odd' at best. Personally I would say - simply 'inaccurate'.

It is also a seriously convoluted, and for me, weak modulation from C major to F minor....two closely related keys where modulation is generally quite straightforward.

Maybe I'm missing something?

Nah you didn't miss anything, even before I got it checked to my teacher and he said it was wack too, so I made a new example which he revised:



Btw i used roman numerals instead of alphabets to show the tonal functions of the chords.

[jancivil]

Btw i used roman numerals instead of alphabets to show the tonal functions of the chords.

You REALLY need to get a sense of the room you're playing before you go off with this shite.

The Roman numerals bit gets to be quite meaningless in the ending of your penultimate version, for one thing.
EG: bII of G is what again? F# A C, a diminished triad, is in no way bII of G. bII7 per key of G is Ab C Eb G. Regarding the enharmonic 'bii7'; nb: the seventh is in the bass, which for purposes of this kind of markup has to be shown. It's a 4/2, ie., the bass has to figure. {IE: the bass is the 2 per the root and the 4 per the 3rd.}
Enharmonic flat two chord is, well, weird. You're in G, spell things from G, FFS. The alphabet is your friend here.

The impression you give with such posts is you're trying to come across as super-advanced but in fact you're rather unschooled. I'm not trying to be mean, actually just being real.

[ChamMusic]

Nah you didn't miss anything, even before I got it checked to my teacher and he said it was wack too, so I made a new example which he revised:

Kudos for admitting it! :0)

This was the point when you should've taken my oh so subtle hint and simply stopped!!!

Yes, I knew it was nonsense...I was attempting to dig out the truth + I just didn't want anyone less musically experienced than me to be confused by your post as it muddied the waters considerably with its inaccuracies!

DON'T Post as if you're a seriously experienced musician with vasts amount of knowledge on a particular aspect of music unless you actually ARE! :0)

There are LOTS of highly skilled, experienced and knowledgeable people on here and you won't impress them at all...

Furthermore, (and more importantly), you run the risk of completely confusing people who are actually asking for help and advice!

No harm done...let's move on! :0)

[jancivil]

bII of G is what again? F# A C, a diminished triad, is in no way bII of G. bII7 per key of G is Ab C Eb G. Regarding the enharmonic 'bii7'; nb: the seventh is in the bass, which for purposes of this kind of markup has to be shown. It's a 4/2, ie., the bass has to figure. {IE: the bass is the 2 per the root and the 4 per the 3rd.}
Enharmonic flat two chord is, well, weird.

I would like to be perfectly clear about this. (I should have said to begin with 'the flat two w. seventh in the bass and a suspension of b9 is 'weird'' {In itself, what you have winds up a bit like*}. Weird isn't bad but the Roman numeral analysis isn't as sensible as it could be.)
This is for any/all readers, it's going to be seen rather more widely than two or three people kinda sorta following it.

You do have "F# C G#" as the harmony you're calling bII7. De facto, since the G# moves quickly to A, the effect for the listener is F# diminished triad. On paper it seems a G# harmony, but NB: 'de facto'.

Then, when indicating '7' for a harmony, the key rules. I'm sure you know it's the minor 7th, I mean it's there and then poof.

I realize how stodgy these objections may seem. I see what you want here and it's a kind of clever idea to make the seventh of a flat two harmony the leading tone to the I. But you're using the convention of Roman numeral analysis kind of ad hoc there: you have vii of G to I, de facto. I'm suggesting clarity of thought here (and Occam's Razor, the fewer assumptions needed for your argument to function the better; simple dominant to tonic is the effect).
Another thought you may want to consider since you seem to like Ab F# as propulsion to G: Ab C F# is an * Italian augmented sixth harmony in C. Like so: Ab C F is iv in first inversion, figured iv6; augment the sixth to F#. Now resolve. Just food for thought. In other words, the intervals you have speak of something that doesn't agree with your markups quite.

[low_low]

If the song gets weird enough for a moment you can move to any key ..

If key changes are part of the rhythm you can move to any key ..

[Anesn1]

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I'd like to know more too. Currently I'm using the camelot wheel andcomaptible keys on https://wwwgetsongkey.com (https://wwwgetsongkey.com) as my musical knowledge isn't great but it relly helps to quickly find matching songs. As for the Roman Numerals that's something I'd like to learn more about as it confuses me somewhat.

[currentsound]

This article will help you understand a few simple ways to move in and out of keys: https://currentsound.com/music-producti ... -pop-song/

Cmajor to Am is still the same scale since they are relative so that's not really changing the key other than playing the relative minor key. To learn more about the different keys and scales and the chords within them you can also read this: https://currentsound.com/music-producti ... roduction/ then the first article I linked to will make a little more sense.

[Spring Goose]

I haven't tried doing a key change (yet), but I understand you're supposed to use a "bridge" chord to prepare the listener before the key change. This has been said already in this thread, but i'm saying it again in my words. Use a chord which is (nearly) common to both the old key and the new key.

[Forgotten]

Not quite, but close. It's not intended to prepare a listener, but to follow harmonic rules that make the transition less awkward sounding when it occurs. There are common ways to modulate, but that modulation can be a temporary key change to extend and make a piece of music interesting before resolving at the end of a section, or a more permanent key change.

There are some pretty straightforward ways to do this, but they really revolve around retaining as many common notes as possible between keys, and sometimes varying the main melody to match the accidentals that might be introduced during the transition. You can also use common substitutions to make the change more palatable, and again it really depends on how the main melody fits with the harmony notes.

[currentsound]

I am sure its probably on here, but I was wondering if some one can help. I have the Camelot wheel and was wondering if that shows the proper way to change to and from your current key.

By the way. The Chamelot Wheel is just a fu*ked up DJ version of the Circle of 5ths. You should look up some videos on The Circle of 5ths.

As you go around clockwise in the Circle of 5ths the next key only has one sharp or flat added (black note on the piano) each time. This means the next key is only a tiny bit different from the previous key. If you go in reverse, counter clockwise, you get the Circle of 4ths.

It's called the circle of 5ths because the 5th note of the scale you are in, is the next key in the circle. For example from C to G. C has no sharps in the key. G is the 5th note of the scale of C major. G has only one sharp F#. That means if you were playing in the key of C, then changed to the key of G you only had to change one note.

And so on as you go around the wheel. G to D. In the key of G, we have an F#, the rest are white notes/naturals. In the key of D, the next one on the wheel, we have two sharps, F# and C#. Each time you go around the wheel, only one extra black note is added.

The circle of 5ths is used more for playing one song and then playing another song directly after it. Since only one note is changed, the change is more seamless. That is why DJs use it but before then it was used by Jazz players to play long uninterrupted sets that seamlessly move from one song/progression to another.

In terms of actually using it in pop music and music productions, the circle of 5ths is used less and this technique is used more: https://currentsound.com/music-producti ... -pop-song/ but in saying that, that technique actually does stem from the circle of 5ths and the circle of 4ths. It's just the WAY in that is is used is different.

Once you get into Neo-Soul & Jazz theory though, there are many different ways to move in and out of a key that aren't mentioned in the linked article. Too many ways. A forum or article isn't the best way to explain those more complex ways. You'd really need a music teacher or at minimum a video for that or you're likely to get confused pretty quickly and it won't be able to be 'explained easily' like you said you wanted.

[Forgotten]

The circle of 5ths is used more for playing one song and then playing another song directly after it. Since only one note is changed, the change is more seamless. That is why DJs use it but before then it was used by Jazz players to play long uninterrupted sets that seamlessly move from one song/progression to another.

I think you might want to research the circle of fifths, as that's not what it's used for at all.

[currentsound]

I haven't tried doing a key change (yet), but I understand you're supposed to use a "bridge" chord to prepare the listener before the key change. This has been said already in this thread, but i'm saying it again in my words. Use a chord which is (nearly) common to both the old key and the new key.

Yeah pretty much but when you use it and where you place it matters a lot but this is the main starting point/idea.

[currentsound]

The circle of 5ths is used more for playing one song and then playing another song directly after it. Since only one note is changed, the change is more seamless. That is why DJs use it but before then it was used by Jazz players to play long uninterrupted sets that seamlessly move from one song/progression to another.

I think you might want to research the circle of fifths, as that's not what it's used for at all.

I disagree. Historically that is what the chart has been used for. In terms of the theory, other techniques stem from the circle of 5ths but I would argue that those are different techniques by themselves. Like other people have mentioned, using bridging chords and such rely on the circle of 5ths but people don't just keep going around the circle itself. When people actually go around the circle, THAT is the circle of 5ths. Not just using one small part of the circle. How you use the chart is up to you and of course it is useful to refer to but actually going AROUND the circle of 5ths is what I'm talking about here. I'm just saying you don't usually go around the circle of 5ths within one song. I'm very aware on how to use the chart for other purposes as you would see if you checkout the link I mentioned but when people say "The Circle of 5ths" they're usually talking about the exercise. The keyword in the quote above is MORE. Meaning more often. Not the only way. Quoting just that one section, you're pulling it out of context and missing the point.