Roli Seaboard RISE

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himalaya
KVRAF
5195 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:12 am

machinesworking wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:36 am
I haven't read this whole thread, but has anybody talked about the Rise as an instrument in terms of the rubber and slide?

I bought a Seaboard Block and while I like it, and recently bought a Seaboard Rise, the one almost for me anyway natural thing to want to do is to push down for aftertouch then slide to get whatever filter or modulator you've assigned to slide. This result often in the rubber of the Block and Rise bunches up and your fingers response is to lock, or go straight. As a guitar player this is the absolute last habit you want to develop. I really don't think it's a great idea for keyboard players either to have a "natural" response to be locking your knuckle straight like that.
I'm keeping the Block, but the Rise is already sold waiting for pick up by USPS. Besides pitch, the natural thing is to want to do is to use strike and aftertouch with slide, which IMO is a huge failure on the part of Roli. If they had made the surface of the Roli out of a more slick surface like teflon etc. then this wouldn't be an issue.
On to the Linnstrument. -->
I've talked about this numerous times. So again, it's all down to your playing technique (read about it below). There is nothing wrong with the silicone on the RISE. I can reveal that during the development there were many, many test units with different surface materials. It would be a mistake to think that this current silicone is the only example ROLI had arrived at. This silicone surface is the result of many years of testing. Starting from the Seaboard GRAND with many versions of silicone made just for the GRAND...

The challenge with the RISE is that we can SLIDE along the keywaves, and bend the pitch, and at the same time we want to stay in tune on the first note-on. If you make the silicone more smooth or "slick" as you say, you'd have very tough time triggering a note in tune. The reason is, your finger would slip, either a little bit, or by a huge margin on the very first contact with the keywave. It would make playing in tune impossible. Trust me. I'm a doctor. :D I've played such "slick" RISE surfaces, some made with extremely smooth and extremely 'slidable' plastic coatings....they were perfect for sliding and gliding and totally wrong for playing fast leads lines or chords. So this current silicone surface is a compromise:

1. it's firm enough as to allow steady SLIDE gestures without affecting the pitch (which would be the case with the silicone from the Seaboard GRAND, as an example).
2. it's smooth enough as to allow the finger SLIDE easily along the keywave (if done withe the correct playing technique)
3. it's not too smooth, which would cause the finger to slip from the top keywaves, and affect the pitch as a result.

Basically, the silicone on the RISE is fighting with the 'opposites': it needs to be smooth and it needs to be firm and 'grabby'.

The correct playing technique.
This is for people who approach the Seaboard with a 'piano' technique where you hit the key with the top of your finger at an angle of about 90 degree:

In order to successfully SLIDE up along the keywave - after the first note-on - we need to pivot the finger and bring the hand towards the RISE surface. We need to move from a more or less 90 degrees angle to about 160 degrees angle. Then, SLIDE up keeping the finger straight and with the top, soft part of the finger touching the surface. It's important not to make contact on the silicone with the finger nail. This whole manoeuvre takes microseconds to perform and is the key to a successful SLIDE gesture.

Now, you can do that when interacting with pressure too. The same rules apply. Actually, it's very easy to add pressure while you slide up - keeping the finger-top flat on the keywave and press in, to add PRESS modulation.
I do it all the time, and my silicone never creases, I never 'dig' into it, were it would bunch up and stop my finger from smoothly sliding along....

A more experienced Seaboard player can approach the RISE with the fingers in a more flat position (lower angle) for a lot of the music played. Sliding and gliding is never a problem here.

Lastly, you have to remember that the RISE is a real instrument and it has its own set of rules and playing techniques. It's no good coming to it with pre-conceived ideas of what the finger should or shouldn't be doing. It would be no good to complain that a violin player can not get a nice bowing sound when playing a trumpet with a bow! Likewise, any guitar finger positioning, or piano hand and finger positions need to be adopted to what the RISE demands. :)
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7878 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:25 am

machinesworking wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:31 pm
I'm not selling the Seaboard Block here, just the Rise. Pitch glides on Roli, It's a very specific sound isn't it? because I see no way of doing a glide without using the strips above or bellow the 'keys', this means at the start you're also incorporating slide.
True on the seaboard block, not true on the Rise. I have an easy time gliding the pitch over the waves themselves. Obviously a little trickier than on the strips but works fine for a few semi-tones. I sold my seaboard block that I had for a month as I didn't really like the playing experience. Love the Rise though.
Basically if you want to engage aftertouch, slide up to engage a filter or whatever, in my case it bunches up the rubber, and the natural thing you do in response is to lock your knuckle, which is not a good thing.
All you need to do is flatten your finger angle so that more of it is pressing down. Maybe that's what you mean by locking your knuckle. Totally reasonable gesture. Try gliding the pitch on a linnstrument with any serious pressure, or even while trying to maintain a high vertical axis signal at the very top of the squares. Quite difficult. Each format and surface has it's drawbacks and necessitates a different style of play.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

Spitfire31
KVRAF
2929 posts since 18 May, 2003 from Sweden

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:31 am

Finally, posts based on knowledge and not waffle. Thank you, himalaya and Echoes!
If it were easy, anybody could do it!

himalaya
KVRAF
5195 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:20 pm

Here's a very short video which demonstrates the technique I've described above (the video is rough and ready. I've no time to produce high production value videos. :D ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osv5QOX ... e=youtu.be
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7878 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:30 pm

himalaya wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:20 pm
Here's a very short video which demonstrates the technique I've described above (the video is rough and ready. I've no time to produce high production value videos. :D ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osv5QOX ... e=youtu.be
Exactly. Easy-peasy once you get used to it.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

machinesworking
KVRAF
2174 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:24 pm

himalaya wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:20 pm
Here's a very short video which demonstrates the technique I've described above (the video is rough and ready. I've no time to produce high production value videos. :D ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osv5QOX ... e=youtu.be
A couple things:

I am already doing this technique. to engage full channel pressure and slide at the same time it's a natural thing to do. It's also not effective when you apply full channel pressure at the start and slide, it still wrinkles the rubber. You can tell in your video you're not at full pressure, maybe 70-80%.

I get that it's a compromise, but open up Roli Dashboard and watch the ring of 'pressure' around the note, to not bunch up the rubber, it's nowhere near full pressure at the start. It's my bad really, I immediately want to take full advantage of the two obvious choices for various synth parameters, and run into the one limitation of the Roli system. Basically making aftertouch as sensitive as can be without immediately engaging on touch, for patches I want to use that technique on, is about the only real answer.

Locking your fingers, i.e. using them straight like that is the absolute worst thing you can do as a guitar player. I'm actually a little worried that using this technique is going to adversely affect my guitar playing. I would rather deal with a slicker surface and more out of tune notes than a technique that is in conflict with other techniques.

I'm not even sure that the Linnstrument is going to fulfill my wishes here, since the slide distance on a note is so small. I haven't had a chance to play one yet, but in general it is what it is. :shrug:

himalaya
KVRAF
5195 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:04 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:24 pm
It's also not effective when you apply full channel pressure at the start and slide, it still wrinkles the rubber.
If it does, then you are doing it wrong. I can hit the keywaves, and at the same time slide up and press in without the silicone "bunching up". It's all about that flat position of the finger tip. You can press in, and slide up when the finger tip is flat on the silicone, and you can glide without any issues. I do it all the time.

But, if you are struggling, you can help yourself by editing the synth patch. If you are using Equator or Cypher/Strobe it is easy to do. Simply edit the PRESS expression curve and make it more logarithmic, this will make it easier to trigger pressure without having to press in so much into the silicone surface.


You can tell in your video you're not at full pressure, maybe 70-80%.
True. But I can be at full pressure. I can press-in with the same position of the finger tip. In fact, I can do it and you wouldn't know that I'm pressing-in. The RISE is so sensitive that you won't see any sign of the silicone being pressed-in and yet pressure will be working just fine.

It's my bad really, I immediately want to take full advantage of the two obvious choices for various synth parameters, and run into the one limitation of the Roli system.

I maintain that it's about the correct playing technique.


Basically making aftertouch as sensitive as can be without immediately engaging on touch, for patches I want to use that technique on, is about the only real answer.
In that case use logarithmic expression curves on the PRESS dimension. Pressure will feel much more responsive and immediate. But this in turn will require that you play the RISE with a much softer touch, since with pressure being very sensitive you will trigger it much more readily, so softer touch will be needed. Most people come to the Seaboards being brought up on pianos and synth keyboards and they tend to 'whack' the keywaves with full force, a big no-no on the RISE. Strong velocity force will max out the PRESS dimension.


I'm actually a little worried that using this technique is going to adversely affect my guitar playing.


You should really watch EVERY video with Marco Parisi. He is a bass player and a piano/hammond player. Follow him on his twitter and facbook. He has the best assortment of playing techniques on the RISE out of anyone in the world. Marco and Heen Wah-Wai. Watch every video by these guys to see how they use the RISE. No issues whatsoever with pressure, slide...everything flows as it should.
Last edited by himalaya on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

himalaya
KVRAF
5195 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:20 pm

Here's a video where you can see me sliding without any issues, although I am not using pressure here that much. I will make a video that shows PRESS+SLIDE working together in more detail. In the meantime, have a look ( I've posted this before):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_SMW9PCqYs&t=11s
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

eaman
KVRer
10 posts since 9 Feb, 2020

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:21 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:11 am
What technological developments were missing, previously, that explain why expressivity didn’t improve already, a decade or two ago?
1. Sensors: today you have cheap pressure / force sensors, and sheets of grids of these sensors like you have in the seaboard / block
2. Microcontrollers that can decode all these input data for cheap
3. Interfaces that can manage more bandwidth and ofc protocols like MPE and now MIDI 2.0

BTW there are MIDI 2.0 devices around, one is Roland’s A-88MKII

machinesworking
KVRAF
2174 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:54 pm

himalaya wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:20 pm
Here's a video where you can see me sliding without any issues, although I am not using pressure here that much.
Yeah, again, it works fine if you're not using that much pressure. I'll see about Cypher2 here, but with the sensitive patch here, I can start off at about 80% pressure, then get to 100% by the end of the slide and it works, but if I start off at full pressure it really doesn't matter how horizontal my finger is to the key, there's a good chance it bunches up a bit on the way up, or even a lot, if you get full pressure on a key, and slide, it's a rough ride. The key here for me is setting Cypher2 etc. to be sensitive as it can to get to full pressure.

Thanks for your insight, hopefully others get something out of this. I'm not trying to dog on a product I own, but it's good to know the limitations and the reasons why they went with stickier silicon, personally I would have preferred the chance of more wrong notes over adjusting patches to fit, but I get that everything is a compromise.

User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5846 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:57 am

eaman wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:21 pm
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:11 am
What technological developments were missing, previously, that explain why expressivity didn’t improve already, a decade or two ago?
1. Sensors: today you have cheap pressure / force sensors, and sheets of grids of these sensors like you have in the seaboard / block
2. Microcontrollers that can decode all these input data for cheap
I myself was wondering about 1.

What’s the quantitative difference on 2?

Are these the result of developments for specific industries? Manufacturing? I’m assuming none of the music-product companies did this development, because of, again, a lack of demand.
eaman wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:21 pm
3. Interfaces that can manage more bandwidth and ofc protocols like MPE and now MIDI 2.0

BTW there are MIDI 2.0 devices around, one is Roland’s A-88MKII
MIDI 2.0 isn’t actually present yet. MPE is just a standardized methodology of using MIDI 1.0.

The Roland A-88MKII does not have MIDI 2.0. It is “MIDI 2.0 Ready”... marketing speak. I assume that, if Roland fulfill their promise, whenever MIDI 2.0 is actually a thing in other products, they’ll release some kind of software update to activate it in this keyboard, or install the actual MIDI 2.0 protocol to it... which will probably only work with computers (once there’s an OS and a DAW with MIDI 2.0) via USB connections. As of right now, you can’t do anything with it.

Remember when dialup modems were sold with “28.8-ready” stickers on the box before the standard was actually officially ratified? You had to run an EEPROM flash or replace a chip to make it actually DO 28.8 (unless the interim or brand-specific version of 28.8 protocol was supported by the BBS you were already dialing).
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eaman
KVRer
10 posts since 9 Feb, 2020

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:22 am

What’s the quantitative difference on 2?
Dunno, 300/1 maybe?
I teach 10 years old kids to use 50cc sensors with a 1$ arduino, you can guess the dev cost for an industrial unit.

Touch - pressure sensors are everywhere, go check the history of sensei morph if you care or just google for "force pressure sensors". Cheap microcontrollers were a "novelity" like 12years ago...

Mats Eriksson
KVRist
139 posts since 4 Sep, 2016

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:33 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:50 pm
I’m not fond of music equipment that can be turned into useless bricks when software updates stop.
Yes, I agree, and recently the clouds on that heaven for sure, but not software updates but hardware updates. Which makes me wary about things like "preorder" or "deposit" or "crowdfunded/kickstarter" project such as the VAXMIDI by Infinite Response. Osmose is in that vein. That van Chandler guy of Infinite Response had the idea of some sort of "IKEA" master keyboard, where you can mix and match your hardware and assemble it yourself.

Now he has vanished from the face of earth, and people had tried to assemble their units, and it ended up in a dumpster. Company not existing anymore. What have they been smoking?

dusted william
KVRAF
4812 posts since 18 Dec, 2000

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:46 pm

eaman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:22 am
What’s the quantitative difference on 2?
Dunno, 300/1 maybe?
I teach 10 years old kids to use 50cc sensors with a 1$ arduino, you can guess the dev cost for an industrial unit.

I'm not 10, but I want to know more about this!

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:17 pm

eaman wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:35 am
I got a used Block and I like it, I'm thinking about buying another one or a Rise 49.
I don't mind small keywaves but what troubles me is that I fell like I need to put too much strength to play the Block, do you know if the Rise is any different?
That hasn't been my experience. I prefer the Block because the smaller keywaves make it easier to apply that pressure you need. When your hand is more spread out on the Rise, it's actually more difficult to hit the keys as hard as you sometimes need to. The Rise also tends to bunch up under your fingers more than Block does. I'd definitely go for a second Block.
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:11 am
Expressivity has gone backwards in pursuit of lower cost. This has been a technological trend for a while now, in most markets: lower cost = less capability. In fact, we have plenty of companies actively selling less for more!
But there are also amazing bargains like the KeyStep with plenty of expressivity at a ridiculously low cost. Or MicroFreak and it's interesting take on expression. There will always be a range of options so, yes, cheap stuff remains cheap but you don't have to spend much more to get the good stuff.
machinesworking wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:36 am
I bought a Seaboard Block and while I like it, and recently bought a Seaboard Rise, the one almost for me anyway natural thing to want to do is to push down for aftertouch then slide to get whatever filter or modulator you've assigned to slide. This result often in the rubber of the Block and Rise bunches up and your fingers response is to lock, or go straight.
I had that problem with the Rise but it's not been an issue at all with the Block. The other thing you could do is reverse the polarity of whatever you're controlling with slide and slide towards you. It never bunches up when you do that but you might have to get used to hitting the keys further up to facilitate it.
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