Why you use multiple DAWs ?

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jonljacobi
KVRian
1421 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:32 am

Yeah. It seemed that Bitwig started out trying to be an all-purpose DAW, then narrowed its focus. The same issues I had in version 1.x, exist to this day and for the life of me, I can’t understand why they haven’t been fixed. My best guesses are that they’re features the devs never use, or that something changed within the company or its strategy between versions 1 and 2. Specifically, going after a modular crowd.

It was particularly frustrating to see all the cosmetic work that was done, and all the new features added without any attention paid to fixing some very basic issues. It doesn’t seem as if I’m alone in this either.

andypryce
KVRist
236 posts since 2 Nov, 2014

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:39 am

lastmessiah wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:34 am
It is also why I prefer them to Pro Tools/Cubase/Logic, as these applications seem stuck in that old tape recorder mindset in a lot of ways.
Cubase does not seem stuck to be anywhere when used by Noisia :)
Last edited by andypryce on Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

andypryce
KVRist
236 posts since 2 Nov, 2014

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:39 am

Double

machinesworking
KVRAF
2173 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:11 pm

jonljacobi wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:32 am
Yeah. It seemed that Bitwig started out trying to be an all-purpose DAW, then narrowed its focus. The same issues I had in version 1.x, exist to this day and for the life of me, I can’t understand why they haven’t been fixed. My best guesses are that they’re features the devs never use, or that something changed within the company or its strategy between versions 1 and 2. Specifically, going after a modular crowd.

It was particularly frustrating to see all the cosmetic work that was done, and all the new features added without any attention paid to fixing some very basic issues. It doesn’t seem as if I’m alone in this either.
This goes back to my thoughts on the DAW world having two not distinct but mostly clear camps. My two main DAWs as of now are Bitwig and DP10, In the past it was Logic and Live. The reasons for this to me are clear.
Setting up and using supported control surfaces in Live and Bitwig is as easy as it gets, and there are plenty that are supported. At maybe the cost of some CPU use both tend to be nonstop audio production oriented; they don't stutter as much as Logic, DP, Cubase etc. when adding in instruments etc. or working on a track when the sequencer is running. They both have limited support for various extensions in some ways, Live can't do more than 128 track automation or CC parts, no MPE, neither can do SysEx, Bitwig doesn't do REX or Rewire etc.
Compare that to older DAWs, there's some lacks based on age, Logic won't do software instruments by port, MIDI out from AUi is weird, DP has limited control surface support, (pretty much Mackie and HUI emulation only). You also get advanced MIDI editing features, full audio editing, legacy hardware support, in general a lot more customizability to your way of working.

In general I wouldn't want to work on really big projects in Bitwig or Live the GUI gets in the way at that point. To me anyway though it's a lot more of a joy to work with Clips and Scenes than markers and keyboard shortcuts to rearrange a song on the fly, and the Push 2 support for Bitwig is fantastic.
DP10 is the first old school DAW to attempt to add in Clips and Scenes, so it's possible that I end up selling Bitwig at some point, but control surface support is lacking ATM, and the feature is a 1.0 release, it needs a bit of work to be a real threat to these newer DAWs.

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 pm

dellboy wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:12 am
I have demoed it a lot but found Ableton Live to be easier and quicker for pattern based music for some odd reason.
And at the end of the day I can do everthing just as quick in Cubase as either of those two.
Yeah, I tried Live when v1 was released, didn't like it at all and have never felt the urge to revisit it. Being completely used to working in a pattern based way, I thought I'd find Cubase clunky but the opposite has been true. It's easy to work in a pseudo-pattern/clip based way while you are developing ideas and super-quick to turn those ideas into a finished arrangement.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

zoidkirb
KVRist
91 posts since 9 Jun, 2019 from Brisbane Australia

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:00 pm

Cubase seems to have a reputation for not being capable, or being 'bad' at clip based work flow but it's got a lot of capability in this area especially if you own the full version of groove agent. you can create your drum patterns in groove agent , assign them all to pads then it's a matter of triggering each sequence with you controller of choice or simply drawing the trigger notes into the sequencer. groove agent is also a great place to layer, manipulate, trigger, and trigger patterns of samples too.

After all that is the arranger track. I'm currently using my Launchpad to fire off different sections of the timeline that doesn't feel too different to what I do over in Live. I would describe the workflow as a hybrid of Live's session and arranger mode, but much simper (for better or for worse)

I followed this guide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ByZHkzD20 It's a bit of a hassle to set up, and pretty far from being much use in a live situation but it's great for throwing ideas around. Hopefully in the future Steinberg can at least just give us a simple midi learn for the arranger track at least.

machinesworking
KVRAF
2173 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:03 pm

zoidkirb wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:00 pm
I followed this guide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ByZHkzD20 It's a bit of a hassle to set up, and pretty far from being much use in a live situation but it's great for throwing ideas around.
I wish I had time to watch a 2 1/2 hour video on Cubase's version of clip launching... or more, any maybe 2 minute videos showing the feature?

zoidkirb
KVRist
91 posts since 9 Jun, 2019 from Brisbane Australia

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:26 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:03 pm
zoidkirb wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:00 pm
I followed this guide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ByZHkzD20 It's a bit of a hassle to set up, and pretty far from being much use in a live situation but it's great for throwing ideas around.
I wish I had time to watch a 2 1/2 hour video on Cubase's version of clip launching... or more, any maybe 2 minute videos showing the feature?
Ah sorry, I should have time stamped that. Anyway the relevant bit (midi control over arrangement segments) is from about 13:00 to 15:00.

reggie1979
KVRAF
1902 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:19 pm

because "reason" isn't studio one but that studio one is of it's own entity.

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:19 pm

Or you could watch this video, which shows the features from a different perspective, using Cubase Elements. The main bit is at the start so you can stop watching once you've seen enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKaTM6dJYfs
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

machinesworking
KVRAF
2173 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:39 am

BONES wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:19 pm
Or you could watch this video, which shows the features from a different perspective, using Cubase Elements. The main bit is at the start so you can stop watching once you've seen enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKaTM6dJYfs
Yeah that's essentially how Reaper does "Clips" as well, it's more akin to Live's "Scenes" really than Clips. It's still not like Live, Bitwig or DP in the sense that every track (Clip) is capable of being played as a loop etc.

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:17 am

Well, it could be if you laid things out in the tracks to facilitate that but I can't see any benefit to working that way. In Bitwig you end up copying the clips into the arrangement window anyway, in Cubase they are already there. That means you don't need a Clip View, which removes a step or two from the process. To me that makes it superior. Or am I missing something?
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

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toonertik
KVRAF
2267 posts since 15 Feb, 2017 from a worn out vinyl groove

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:34 am

BONES wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:17 am
Or am I missing something?
Definitely missing something.

You don't get it, many many others do.

We all have our preferred workflows.

I like to piecemeal and use several DAWs to facilitate this way. It's a follow on from the way I have worked as a sound engineer since recording school bands in 1967.. though a lot more sophisticated. now.

machinesworking
KVRAF
2173 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:44 am

BONES wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:17 am
Well, it could be if you laid things out in the tracks to facilitate that but I can't see any benefit to working that way. In Bitwig you end up copying the clips into the arrangement window anyway, in Cubase they are already there. That means you don't need a Clip View, which removes a step or two from the process. To me that makes it superior. Or am I missing something?
Yes, you're missing something, but for your way of working, it's not that big of a deal.

The advantage of the Live/Bitwig/DP way is that every part of a song or track is immediately or very quickly able to be rearranged. visually it's a lot less cluttered and confusing in a live situation, with Live and Bitwig also having the advantage of visual feedback with controller support for "remixing" the Scenes or Clips live.

The only advantage I see to Cubase's method is it presents itself much like the MPCs, in that you can order an arrangement of a song vertically as "Scenes". In terms of live performance I can't see a single advantage.

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9556 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:03 pm

toonertik wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:34 am
Definitely missing something.
You don't get it, many many others do. We all have our preferred workflows.
That tells me you've put zero time and thought into it, you just work the way you do because that's the way you work. I doubt too many people who like using clips in Live or Bitwig have spent the time trying out those features in Cubase, which is perfectly valid (I've never tried using clips in Live, either) but it's not hard to provide an objective assessment, is it?
I like to piecemeal and use several DAWs to facilitate this way. It's a follow on from the way I have worked as a sound engineer since recording school bands in 1967.. though a lot more sophisticated. now.
But no less clunky, I'm sure.
machinesworking wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:44 am
The advantage of the Live/Bitwig/DP way is that every part of a song or track is immediately or very quickly able to be rearranged.
The same is true in Cubase. Did you watch the video I linked to?
visually it's a lot less cluttered and confusing in a live situation
I think that's just what you're used to. If you sit in front of Cubase all day, then it's way looks a lot less cluttered and confusing because it's all exactly where you'd expect to find it.
with Live and Bitwig also having the advantage of visual feedback with controller support for "remixing" the Scenes or Clips live.
That's covered in some detail in the other, longer video. It seems like it would take some effort to set up but it definitely seems doable.
The only advantage I see to Cubase's method is it presents itself much like the MPCs, in that you can order an arrangement of a song vertically as "Scenes". In terms of live performance I can't see a single advantage.
I see less clutter because your scenes are already in your arrangement window, rather than in a separate window you need to open, so on stage you could play some songs linearly and others using clips without having to switch views or have too many windows open. What I don't see are disadvantages that would make swapping between hosts less of a hassle which, again, is my theme here - that moving between hosts is way more disruptive than having to work around minor deficiencies between one host and another.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

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