why they love to hate logic

[VicDiesel]

Pretty much an obvious thing though as Windows has got to be the most common OS worldwide, including the net. So hackers/programmers chose that one to attack people - simply because they can do more harm.

What do you mean "including the net"? The Apache web server is Unix/Linux, and more common than any MS product by a factor of 3 or so. That would make it an attractive target, right? Especially since taking out a big server is more glorious than hacking into lowly PC. Yet there are far fewer successful attack on Apache. Compare that to Code Red. 300,000 servers down? When did you seesomething like that for Apache?

So it's not "pretty much an obvious thing".

V.

[machinesworking]

Think about the shear amount of mac haters out there, then think about a shear lack of viruses for OSX.

Err? Where's the logic behind that?

I think if it was easy to write an app for OSX that could open up, and start installing things on your machine, like an executable can, then somebody would have done it. Simple as that. OSX does not allow applications to install themselves, a download does not give that kind of permission. Granted anybody with a working knowledge of XP can secure it, but it still stands out to me as a major flaw in windows.

Seriously there is little reason to secure an OSX machine, beyond giving a password for the user.

[kenn michael]

Logic 7 is utter crap for me. Obviously they had time to develop 2 new HUGE instruments but not enough for PDC ?

Do you think the developer/developers who coded the instruments are the same that works on the audio engine? They're not. There are many developers working on different parts of the program at once. It's been said in different forums that full PDC (on auxes and buses, not just audio tracks and instruments which Logic has now) is in the works.

Apple is very familiar with what the pro users want - ie their work on FinalCut Pro, DVD Studio Pro and Shake - I think it'll be interesting to see exactly HOW PDC is implemented in Logic, and how these other workflow issues that exist are tackled.

Make no mistake, when FinalCut Pro was released in 1999, I was concerned about how serious Apple really was when they said they wanted to take on the pro video market. I had a $120K Avid at the time, and I believed in Apple's vision, but I was very skeptical how serious they were. I went to the NAB show (National Association for Broadcasters) and saw they had one of the biggest booths, and made a huge presence there that year. I invested and got rid of my Avid. 5 years later, they've consistently delivered and FinalCut is a highly regarded pro system. They do listen to their users, and I think this is a transition period for Logic. A lot of the program was rewritten to eliminate legacy code. This makes it easier to code new features that everyone wants without having to create hacks to get around aging code.

I understand people's frustration with Logic 7 (even though it works wonderfully for me), but I wouldn't take the stance that Apple is not going to listen to the customers, or 'dumb down' Logic for some reason.

[DHR53]

Logic 7 is a big improvement from even Pro... I don't think a lot of people realize how much has been enhanced... I could care less what Apple does, I have to use a Mac for my work anyway... I don't take it personally if they charge for an upgrade... Or if the G5 is 10-15% more than a PC... The 2 new instruments included with 7 are worth $299. even if I bought the upgrade to Pro a week ago! If you could afford it, you'd buy them! I have 2 PCs, one I built myself from scratch, to be a DAW... It's a killer machine, and it was way cheaper than my G5, but I can't do my work on it! So am I depressed that I'm using a dual G5 with Logic instead of all of my PC DAW software... Uh, NO! I'm perfectly happy getting stuck with this software (Logic) and this computer (G5), and killing 2 birds with 1 stone so-to-speak... I can live without Zeta and a couple of others, in the interest of doing things on one platform that I know the best... I still mess around with my PCs, but mostly to troubleshoot problems with drivers, internet crap, and keep up with what's going on in the Microsoft camp... Hey, you can feel my pain!

[kuniklo]

So kuniklo - if you say Logic is "complicated", does that make it an unbiased opinion?
Seriously, I find Logic to be way easier to handle than, say, Cubase.
Yes, admittedly the first steps are harder to get through, but after that IMO it beats anything else in terms of efficiency and "easyness".
What's so complicated then?

Of course there's really no such thing as an "unbiased" opinion. The point I was trying to make is that if people will make an effort to make more specific claims it at least leaves the door open for a productive discussion.

Personally I do find Logic a bit more complicated than Sonar or Cubase for a few reasons:

1. It's just bigger. There are a lot of fairly complex functions buried away in innocuous looking menu commands.

2. The environment. No other host has anything like this. It's like a stripped down Max/MSP built into the host. The good news is you can pretty much ignore it and if you do delve into it you can accomplish things you just couldn't do in any other host.

3. Many, many interesting functions are hidden away in the engine and inaccessible unless you explicitly bind a key command to them.

All that said, I'm in the process of switching to Logic from SX because I find it much more efficient for my style of working. A lot of the things I've had to manage manually in SX are just handled automatically in Logic or are easily automated with a few key commands.

Apple is also obviously aware that Logic is intimidating to beginners and is working hard to make it more accessible. Two of my favorite features in Logic 7 really demonstrate this:

1. Apple Loop support, combined with the loop browser that brilliantly segregates all the loops in to multiple subcategories and lets you sort them by tempo, key, etc. This makes it stupidly easy to grab any sound you can think of and drop it in. You can also drag-loop audio and midi clips just like Sonar's groove clips and I think Logic has actually leap-frogged Sonar in this respect. Some of the loops are dual format loops, both an audio clip or a midi clip with all the information for the instrument and preset. This makes them much more flexible than simple audio loops and is really only possible in a host that comes complete with a full set of instruments.

2. The new channel strip presets. This is also a brilliant new feature. Logic 7 ships with a huge library of complete channel strip presets, each of which is a complete package of instrument, preset, and effects plugins. If I want a pad sound, for instance, I just browse through the pad submenu and choose from several dozen. Choosing one of these loads up everything I need to start playing. Logic is really the only host that could make this work because it's the only one that comes with a complete suite of plugins, both instruments and effects.

These two features combined make it possible for me to get a new track going in L7 faster than I can in any other host, including Live 4. You also get a very respectable amount of default content, both samples, loops, and presets with Logic and you can add a ton more very high quality content for cheap with the garage band jampacks.

It's really a shame that it's so difficult for a PC user to try out Logic 7. I was really amazed when I finally did. A lot of the things I'd been led to believe about it were clearly inaccurate. I think that the combination of Apple's UI team and the EMagic engineering crew just might turn out to be the DAW design dream team. Logic is now supported by one of the biggest and most accomplished software makers on the planet, with far more resources and talent to draw on than Steinberg or Cakewalk. I'm expecting great things to come.

Lastly, while it's true that Macs are more expensive than PCs, a dual G5 is in roughly the same ballpark as a workstation class PC and is *plenty* of horsepower for making music. On the software side the stuff you get in the Logic bundle is an extremely good deal for what it costs, much better than any of the other hosts, IMO.

[_niko_]

I think if it was easy to write an app for OSX that could open up, and start installing things on your machine, like an executable can, then somebody would have done it...

Well, it is not necessarily easy on Windoze either, it can be done though.
To put things into perspective have a look here
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/vendor/
choose apple as vendor and hit submit

Btw, there is not much to argue about IIS being a pos compared to the apache web server.
And I am not a M$ fan either, just don't think that apple is any better

Niko

[kuniklo]

I think if it was easy to write an app for OSX that could open up, and start installing things on your machine, like an executable can, then somebody would have done it.

The big difference between windows and a mac is that on most pcs the user is logged in with full admin priveleges and on a mac the user has to be prompted for a password for admin privs. This limits the damage that a bad program can do quite a bit.

[machinesworking]

Wtf??? On unix every file can be made executable by just changing the exec flag on file permissions.

Once again, in order to change an executable file permissions, you must be logged in as at least admin, this isn't the case with windows, there are ways around it. There are ways to trick people into installing viruses that would be near impossible to pull off on a Unix system.

Just give it up, you guys have faster machines for cheaper, and we have machines that are virtually hack proof, simple facts.

We can site here and you can find "holes" in my argument I'm sure, but it doesn't change the fact that XP is vulnerable compared to Unix systems. Market share alone cannot explain why it's only windows that suffers the constant attacks. This isn't some new piece of information, the vulnerability of windows has been a constant topic for years, and I don't get why people need to defend Microsoft on this one?

[_niko_]

Once again, in order to change an executable file permissions, you must be logged in as at least admin, this isn't the case with windows, there are ways around it. There are ways to trick people into installing viruses that would be near impossible to pull off on a Unix system.

Just give it up, you guys have faster machines for cheaper, and we have machines that are virtually hack proof, simple facts.

We can site here and you can find "holes" in my argument I'm sure, but it doesn't change the fact that XP is vulnerable compared to Unix systems. Market share alone cannot explain why it's only windows that suffers the constant attacks. This isn't some new piece of information, the vulnerability of windows has been a constant topic for years, and I don't get why people need to defend Microsoft on this
one?

Well there are buffer overrun exploits for unix systems and there are things like root kits which btw first appeared on unix systems.
None the less I agree, that Unix is generally less vulnerable than windows. And you're also right that the discussion is rather pointless, don't know why I participated in the first place, maybe because I currently have to deal with OSX at work and I hate it


Anyway, back to making music, have fun everybody...

Niko

[jones-y]

Okay, is the pissing contest over?

Now go make some friggin music and shut the f**k up, everybody.

Apple's platform sucks and so does Microsoft's insect zoo and Intel's toaster factory.

Kay?

[jones-y]

am I the only one that noticed that popsych, the person who started this thread, has one post in this thread and 13 overall?










We've been had

[popsych]

am I the only one that noticed that popsych, the person who started this thread, has one post in this thread and 13 overall?

Yep. That's cause i had army stuff to do. You try posting to KVR from a watch-house. Anyway:

1st i wasn't trying to bash logic. It's still my favorite host and the best thing to match my workflow but i just can't be apples b**ch for it. I was not saying that Macs are worse than computers but certainly worse value for money. Hell if i had the dough i would own a Neve with flying faders and do all my work analog - no ?

2nd Unix i more stable and bullet-proof than windows xp but as you know unix was not developed by apple just implemented in OSX

3rd

Lastly, while it's true that Macs are more expensive than PCs, a dual G5 is in roughly the same ballpark as a workstation class PC and is *plenty* of horsepower for making music.

that is crap. See what the benchmarks say mate.

4th Everyone missed my point that Apple from beeing mainly a hardware company seems to not be faring especially well in that department and has to rely on it's software skills in order to threat people into buying Apple. That is sad for me. Hell why invest in a decaying platform. G5 has seen a ramp in speed not even close to the x86 since released, we are yet to see laptops using it . Food for thought guys.

[egbert]

I think the point made here about the unimpressive speed of Logic development under Apple's watch is valid. Forget the soft instruments - under the old Emagic model they would have been paid for extras for those who wanted them. The core business is the DAW and big features like automation and a proper multilevel undo, support for VSTi's etc were added progressively over the run from 4.x - 5.1.

I suspect that Freeze - which was the only really significant feature to appear in Logic since the buyout - was under development for both platforms prior to Apple's buyout (ie PC users helped finance it). Most of the other work has just been reinventing the wheel with Core Audio etc.

There was a lot of high-fiving by Logic Mac people about how great Apple's influence was going to be but really what it has amounted to thusfar is the arbitrary removal of VST plugin support (which was there in the beta versions apparently) and a few dodgy deals with Space Designer and the subsequent giveaway of all the paid for plugins in Logic Pro 6.

No doubt something decent will surface someday but I really don't see that Logic has progressed anything like as fast since July 02 as it did in the 2 1/2 years prior to that date.

Who knows - the uber coders might be home reading to their children

Eg

[kritikon]

"workflow" is a purely personal thing anyway - it'll vary hugely from person to person.

I'm almost completely opposite. I could never get anything out of Logic - I can't get the simplest things working without using the manual. CubaseSX - I use it and I'm getting to like it (there are so many new useful features available now), but I find the workflow has gone backwards from VST5.1->SX. It takes me on average twice as long to get anything done with SX as it did with VST5.1
I think competing with Logic has certainly given us better features etc, but lost most of the advantages I used to have with it, such as easy workflow, intuitive use, sensible layout, easy plugin and channel configuration. So for myself...I'm not sure competition with Logic was a good thing at all in important areas. I'm thankful Logic is no longer a competitor on PC, because I'd hate to see SX get anymore cumbersome to use.

I'd rather see Steinberg get competition from things like Tracktion...where I can see definite workflow advantages. Give me a VST5.1 GUI and SX features and I would maybe be completely happy. But SX features and a Logic GUI that's not a good mix.

[putte]

i dont care what computers and software you people use .. why should i?
but one thing has to go off my chest:

I absolutely hate and detest most socks and pants you people wear!
Being a sock AND pants user since many decades now i think i know way more about this than most of you people outthere.

think about it, schnitzenwhiners!