Bug-free Mac DAW?

[Hanz Meyzer]

oops I meant @machinesworking

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Ten years doesn't really seem like such a stretch, for me. I'd be interested to know how many Windows musicians have similar stabilty, and for so many years

My current Windows desktop machine (yes, I'm a hybrid ) started with Windows XP, and has somewhat around 10 years too, if I remember well, or even more.

A desktop is a different situation than a laptop, by virtue of the fact that you can swap out certain components that would cause instability and/or limit the ongoing usefulness of a computer.

Either way, I wasn't making a case for or against Windows stability.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Gsus X, I did not say Windows is more stable or never breaks for a short time

And I didn't say you did. Calm down, perhaps

You inferred that it was going to be unlikely that you'd find anyone using a 10-year-old, stable MacOS DAW. ANd i provided two examples of my own experience of stability on the Mac platform, with computers that most would considered long past their use-by date. As I said, my current 2012 MBP shows no signs of instability.

but Microsoft never simply breaks 50% of all apps by purpose. But Apple regularly does that.

I don't agree with the way Apple roll out updates, but they aren't breaking apps on purpose. It just happens to be an unfortunate side-effect of what they call progress.

A developer usually can assume that his/her app still will run after the next win10 update. But needs to be afraid that the software will completely break after next Apple update. What do you think this will feel like?

I have a lot of sympathy for developers (Most of them, at least), who have to deal with this ongoing nightmare. However (And this is the really important part), part of what it takes to keep running a stable DAW is to give large OS updates a wide berth. So, as a consumer, this is not an issue for me, as I will hold off updating until the coast is clear. Stability intact!

Apple even removes frameworks without providing an alternative or wrapper. Or cripples frameworks, slows it down, even without providing any information about it. Apple is an horror show. End of discussion.

Again! As unfortunate a situation as this is, it has never affected me nor the stability of my DAW

Glad you're no longer going to discuss this, though

By "stability" I meant simply a working software without the need to patch/update it.

You can define it however you like. Updates and patches are an inevitable part of software and hardware; nay!...everything we use. In and of itself it is not grounds to cry about instability

[fmr]

but Microsoft never simply breaks 50% of all apps by purpose. But Apple regularly does that.

I don't agree with the way Apple roll out updates, but they aren't breaking apps on purpose. It just happens to be an unfortunate side-effect of what they call progress.

"what they call progress"

[Tj Shredder]

There's no such thing as bug-free. Ever.

Except for TEX, which is bug free by definition. But that is easy without user interface... (I learned that from the texbook but never tested it, as Lyx makes it useable but is as far from bug free as a software can bee...; - )
Most hello world programs are bug free as hell...

[Tj Shredder]

Unstable software has mostly two parts. One is the OS, and one is the software. With DAWs there is a third party involved. Most DAWs will crash with a crashing plug-in. One notable exception is Bitwig, as it has separate threads for them. A crashing plugin does not crash Bitwig! If there are others please chime in...
Bitwig is far from bug free, but I did not have crashes for a long time. It was even so, the last time I had crashes, the Bitwig devs contacted me to find out what was going wrong. In the end it was very specific for my setup and easy to fix as well (on my side...)
The worst company for years regarding broken functionality on OS upgrades is still Avids Protools. In this case I blame Avid, it seemed to be part of their business model. Microsoft needed to give professional users the ability to stop automatic updates of Windows as a service, because too many problems would kill working environments. (In other areas as music production.)
With all these 3rd party plugin developers it might look like a specific host is crash prone, but if the bug is in the plug-in, you can‘t blame them.
All-in-all my setups are way more stable than some years ago...

[jonljacobi]

Windows stability has improved drastically from XP through 10. I no longer consider it an issue. Apple’s behavior in terms of forced obsolescence can be very annoying, okay, infuriating, but I don’t think that’s the reason behind Catalina’s new security.

Regardless, I just don’t update for the sake of updating or minor new features. I have updates disabled on Windows, and stay as far behind on macOS as I can. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Back on topic, the only DAW I found unstable was Tracktion though Logic has had its moments.

[Michael L]

Thanks everyone for your comments! We have consensus that MacOS randomly forgets old things as it learns new things.

MacOS.jpg

[machinesworking]

@machinesworking you will have to use a non Apple daw to get a clue about this. Of course Apple provide updates for all their software straight after an os update.

But for any other daws it will turn into a mess: first it will take a lot of months, until the daw will run again. Then you will have to wait like 2 years, until all your plugin developers will adapt (or not) to Apple s recent, poorly documented, extremely egocentrical changes. All my daws regularly break. For example, 10.11 broke all audio unit hosts. 10.12 broke a lot 32 bit guis. 10.13 broke a lot of guis and performance. 10.14 crippled opengl, slowed down coregraphics. And so on and on.

Realistically after an Apple update, you will have to wait 1 to 2 years, until you can update without problems. This is not the case on Windows. Also Microsoft finally understood This problem and stopped with useless numbering jumping.

In contradiction Apple always makes old versions unusable by purpose, even without a technical reason, e.g. xcode. Since most developers rely on xcode, they are now double time scammed.

Hyperbole.

I've never had much issues with updates, or upgrades. There are the three exceptions- OS9 to OSX, Power PC to Intel, and now Catalonia being 64 bit only.

I've used over the year Ableton Live and Digital Performer, neither are Apple DAWs.

Mostly any unstable DAW has nothing to do with the OS or the DAW, it's the VST. This has been true forever. An errant VST can screw up any system. Barring the three big changes to the system on OS X, mostly it's not been any big deal. IMO with any OS Upgrade waiting to read a few responses on the net is a good idea.

[Michael L]

Mostly any unstable DAW has nothing to do with the OS or the DAW, it's the VST.

Untrue.
For example, I used a DAW version that hosted every plugin (hundreds) with no issues. Then the DAW upgraded Xcode only one version which caused problems in three different types of graphics event loops causing crashes in that DAW (and randomly in a few others), and the reports tell the story. The DAW and plugin developers need to regularly change their code to make it compatible with each new OS.
Everyone acknowledges this regular pattern of incompatibility. Apple makes annual OS changes to fit its business plan (e.g. MacOS<>iOS) but externalises costs to others, to rewrite their code.
Is there a DAW whose developers can afford to keep up with this? That was my original question, and perhaps the answer is no and such an expectation is unrealistic.
Some consider incompatibility to be The Price of Progress but I don't like spending time finding workarounds. I consider it a "hidden cost" of using MacOS.

[machinesworking]

Mostly any unstable DAW has nothing to do with the OS or the DAW, it's the VST.

Untrue.
For example, I used a DAW version that hosted every plugin (hundreds) with no issues. Then the DAW upgraded Xcode only one version which caused problems in three different types of graphics event loops causing crashes, and the reports tell the story. The DAW and plugin developers then need to regularly change their code to make it compatible with each new OS.
Apple makes annual OS changes to fit its business plan (e.g. MacOS<>iOS) but externalises costs to others, to rewrite their code. Is there a DAW whose developers can afford to keep up with this?
Everyone acknowledges this pattern. Some consider it the Price of Progress but I don't like spending time finding workarounds. I consider it a "hidden cost" of using MacOS.

Ok then, I see no reason not to name and shame the DAW. I'm no Apple apologist, they're a corporate entity with their own interests in mind. I do not think they intentionally want things to be hard, but they certainly do not care if NI for instance didn't listen to them for years and years when they very loudly "hinted" that everyone coding for OS X should switch from CodeWarrior to Xcode. NI got caught with their pants down when the Intel switch was announced etc.

In the end though, none of this matters to me, I've had very few DAW or OS related issues, and plenty of plug in related ones. The truth is over the years it's almost always the same, some developer is being clever using dependencies outside of Apples guidelines, and an OS update destabilizes their plug in. They pop up on forums like this to talk mad smack, but eventually it comes out. What I've learned to do is to avoid those developers, and guess what? I have no issues. All DAWs and sequencers on my system are stable: Reaper, Logic, DP10, Live 10, Bitwig, MPC2, Maschine, ReNoise, Reason. All stable.

VST3 outside of this debate, seems to be a huge hassle for developers, and often the VST3 version is far less stable. Bitwig and Live are OK with it, Reaper is touchy, and DP10 simply fails most of them in it's plug in test. (VST2 works just fine on all mentioned DAWs)

Bitwig here is easily the most stable with VST3, so if that helps you, but from what I can tell that's a Steinberg thing. There's a reason for the low adoption rate of VST3 that has nothing to do with OS X, more to do with it being a PITA for both plug in developers and host developers to work with.

[Michael L]

The truth is over the years it's almost always the same, some developer is being clever using dependencies outside of Apples guidelines, and an OS update destabilizes their plug in....What I've learned to do is to avoid those developers, and guess what? I have no issues.

So you have found that Apple is entirely consistent with its own guidelines across OS versions, and issues arise only when plugin developers violate them. I know that plugin behavior differs across OS/Xcode versions, but perhaps it just takes time for pre-existing conflicts to finally appear. I hope you are correct that a simple way to eliminate OS compatibility and hosting issues is just by being selective about plugin developers. I will certainly think about and try that!

[devilnishy]

[Cinebient]

Like unicorns....good luck finding one.
Latest Logic f.e. is a crashfest.

[Bombadil]

Not for me, but I'm not on Catalina. You?

The only crashes I've experienced with Logic have occurred due to plugins. It's quite stable for what I do.