Also, this is done with ease using cooledit. Just copy the attack of a kick and place it over the attack of another kick.tee boy wrote:Ok, i got another couple for ya.
- Try cross fading to exsisting samples. For example, say you have a kick with a really nice attack, and another with a great 'umph'. Layer the two sounds, but crossfade them some that the one attack moves seamlessly into the second sound. Records are great as source material for this, since they tend to have these elements already emphasized.
A word on trance
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- KVRAF
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
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- Mighty_Musician
- 897 posts since 29 Jun, 2002 from Oklahoma
I personally love trance, ambient, techno, but also r@b, old school hip hop etc.....
What I have found is people who say trance is 'simple' to make can NOT make tracks like conjure one, BT, blank and jones etc. A full blown trance cd I would imagine would be hard to mix/master, and also have it flow right on a cd.....especially to make new mind blowing tunes, when most think it's a simple 4 on the floor, and reverb. I can assure you it's not.
What I have found is people who say trance is 'simple' to make can NOT make tracks like conjure one, BT, blank and jones etc. A full blown trance cd I would imagine would be hard to mix/master, and also have it flow right on a cd.....especially to make new mind blowing tunes, when most think it's a simple 4 on the floor, and reverb. I can assure you it's not.
KVR, my adult playground.
Please, call me Brice.
Please, call me Brice.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Mighty,
Would i be right in saying that you had a fair few of the classic trance synths? Im sure i remember reading you had a Virus KC, maybe a JP etc. What are you're thought on these synths for use in trance, and how do you compare them to the more trance friendly softies?
Again, this one could blow and thats not my intention! Its just something that none hardware owners always seem to ask. I personally think that the Virus and JP are the choice tools for the job. Thats my opinion though. I think that z3ta, Albino, Vanguard are equally up to the task.
Whats your thoughts on this?
Ho do you go about creating main lead lines for trance tunes? Any favorite sounds you like to layer? That classic riff in 'Mercury and Solace' layers a piano over a nice synth arp for example. Its a trick iv used many a time in more chilled prog house tunes
Would i be right in saying that you had a fair few of the classic trance synths? Im sure i remember reading you had a Virus KC, maybe a JP etc. What are you're thought on these synths for use in trance, and how do you compare them to the more trance friendly softies?
Again, this one could blow and thats not my intention! Its just something that none hardware owners always seem to ask. I personally think that the Virus and JP are the choice tools for the job. Thats my opinion though. I think that z3ta, Albino, Vanguard are equally up to the task.
Whats your thoughts on this?
Ho do you go about creating main lead lines for trance tunes? Any favorite sounds you like to layer? That classic riff in 'Mercury and Solace' layers a piano over a nice synth arp for example. Its a trick iv used many a time in more chilled prog house tunes
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- Mighty_Musician
- 897 posts since 29 Jun, 2002 from Oklahoma
I do indeed have a KC (it's my main controller, go to for cd production, stand-by.... I also feel vanguard is actually a tasty synth for trance, and z3ta too.....but z3ta to me, is more an 'all around' performance synth vs solely trance. Z3ta to me, gets this label, because only a few can make it sound otherwise.tee boy wrote:Mighty,
Would i be right in saying that you had a fair few of the classic trance synths? Im sure i remember reading you had a Virus KC, maybe a JP etc. What are you're thought on these synths for use in trance, and how do you compare them to the more trance friendly softies?
Again, this one could blow and thats not my intention! Its just something that none hardware owners always seem to ask. I personally think that the Virus and JP are the choice tools for the job. Thats my opinion though. I think that z3ta, Albino, Vanguard are equally up to the task.
Whats your thoughts on this?
How do you go about creating main lead lines for trance tunes? Any favorite sounds you like to layer? That classic riff in 'Mercury and Solace' layers a piano over a nice synth arp for example. Its a trick iv used many a time in more chilled prog house tunes
As far as secrets for trance, there is none. It can be layered, only a partial from classical style, a mellow slower BPM, which is labeled 'chillout' etc. People get to hung up in the definitions of a genre. To be creative, you must first ignore the rules. If the lead is arp'ed and sounds "trance" to you, run with it. The only (to me anyways) genre you could 'label' 80% of the time would be the blues, but again some think blues are suppose to be sad, whereas most blues musicians I listen to (kim wilson, I dare you to play a harp like that
, muddy waters, even alot of zeppelin is blues to me) believe the blues are a spirital awakening. I really feel we have to many trying to say this is that and this is not that, when music is what it is, MUSIC!
Look, any synth can honestly sound "trance", if you take into account reverb, send delay, filters, arp's etc. I would hate to say get the virus for solely trance....especially since I have one, compose on it ALL the time, belong to the virus email group, and know that discovery, z3ta, vanguard, albino I and II, impOSCar, any nord, and many many others will get you there. Also the virus (any version) is not just for trance. It has 98 effects, 3 osc's, 64 preset arps, (but can be edited) filters that have no zippering, and the modulation matrix of a wicked synth! I have it for this reason, but prefer the nords pitch bend. (the wood block). Whatever works for you is all I can say.........
KVR, my adult playground.
Please, call me Brice.
Please, call me Brice.
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- KVRAF
- 7879 posts since 16 Apr, 2003 from -on the outside looking in
Mighty
andAs far as secrets for trance, there is none.
Amen, well said. I don't know all about trance, but I can't believe there is any substitute for hard work, dedication and skill! Artists making quality trance must work very hard at their craft.Look, any synth can honestly sound "trance", if you take into account reverb, send delay, filters, arp's etc.
..what goes around comes around..
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- Mighty_Musician
- 897 posts since 29 Jun, 2002 from Oklahoma
They truly do. Try and make a conjure one, or BT, or blank and jones track because I want to hear it.....oh and make the mp3 22k......
KVR, my adult playground.
Please, call me Brice.
Please, call me Brice.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Right, here are some thoughts on trance and prog house basslines:
One i like to do is to take a fairly simple saw oct bass sound and create a rhythmic mono bass line. V-station does this pretty well. Now, many people use a delay on this to give a more rhythmic feel, but i find this can really clutter up the low end. So instead, i like to put another subtle line behind the main one. I'll often use a flanger / phaser effect on this, and hp filter it so it doesnt conflict. Use this sound to double just a few notes in the bassline and add a delay. What you get in the end is the saw bass up at the front of the mix, with the modulated line sitting behind providing some movement etc. If notes on the main line conflict with the kick drum (as they often do with this sound), then i side chain to avoid a problem.
Sometimes i like to use a mod traditional bass sound, which is fatter and sits happily below the kick drum. For this sound i either use a nice fat square or sine was sound. Layering can be good here if you want to bring the line 'up' a little. For example, you could layer a cutting lead type sound with a really low, fat analogue sound benneath.
To achieve the cliche hard trance bass sound, you need to combine LFO and ENV filter mods on an acid type sound. Set the LFO quite low so it provides just a subtle swell, then have the ENV accenting this on each off beat note. With the cut off right down, and res up,you can get this nice fat worbling type line that you hear in many Dutch hard trance records. To get the more aggresive sound, run this through a dist plug or stomp box and raise the cut off. All in all, this sound is little more than the cliche 303 acid line, just used in another context. Some of these sounds are really difficult to nail imo. Luckily i dont much care for this particular type of trance music, so i dont need to emulate the sound often. You can hear a great example of it though on Dumonde's mix of 'Bartez - On the Move'. Its a terrible track, but there is about 16 bars during the break down of this sound with nothing else clouding it. Might be worth a listen for anyone into this stuff.
One i like to do is to take a fairly simple saw oct bass sound and create a rhythmic mono bass line. V-station does this pretty well. Now, many people use a delay on this to give a more rhythmic feel, but i find this can really clutter up the low end. So instead, i like to put another subtle line behind the main one. I'll often use a flanger / phaser effect on this, and hp filter it so it doesnt conflict. Use this sound to double just a few notes in the bassline and add a delay. What you get in the end is the saw bass up at the front of the mix, with the modulated line sitting behind providing some movement etc. If notes on the main line conflict with the kick drum (as they often do with this sound), then i side chain to avoid a problem.
Sometimes i like to use a mod traditional bass sound, which is fatter and sits happily below the kick drum. For this sound i either use a nice fat square or sine was sound. Layering can be good here if you want to bring the line 'up' a little. For example, you could layer a cutting lead type sound with a really low, fat analogue sound benneath.
To achieve the cliche hard trance bass sound, you need to combine LFO and ENV filter mods on an acid type sound. Set the LFO quite low so it provides just a subtle swell, then have the ENV accenting this on each off beat note. With the cut off right down, and res up,you can get this nice fat worbling type line that you hear in many Dutch hard trance records. To get the more aggresive sound, run this through a dist plug or stomp box and raise the cut off. All in all, this sound is little more than the cliche 303 acid line, just used in another context. Some of these sounds are really difficult to nail imo. Luckily i dont much care for this particular type of trance music, so i dont need to emulate the sound often. You can hear a great example of it though on Dumonde's mix of 'Bartez - On the Move'. Its a terrible track, but there is about 16 bars during the break down of this sound with nothing else clouding it. Might be worth a listen for anyone into this stuff.
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- KVRAF
- 7879 posts since 16 Apr, 2003 from -on the outside looking in
The first bassline tip is similar to what I would do using a tracker.
so I have to confess, I got into the tracker scene because it seemed like a quick and easy way to make electronic music. I started making a birthday song for a friend and was quickly overwhelmed at the complexity of it all.
Went back to singing with guitars for a while until I moved and had enough time to try and learn some things.
I was delightedly wrong. Still listen to the old trance-y .XM's
so I have to confess, I got into the tracker scene because it seemed like a quick and easy way to make electronic music. I started making a birthday song for a friend and was quickly overwhelmed at the complexity of it all.
Went back to singing with guitars for a while until I moved and had enough time to try and learn some things.
I was delightedly wrong. Still listen to the old trance-y .XM's
..what goes around comes around..
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
Remember though, some minds are easier blown than others.Mighty_Hero wrote:A full blown trance cd I would imagine would be hard to mix/master, and also have it flow right on a cd.....especially to make new mind blowing tunes...
McLilith
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- Mighty_Musician
- 897 posts since 29 Jun, 2002 from Oklahoma
McLilith wrote:Remember though, some minds are easier blown than others.Mighty_Hero wrote:A full blown trance cd I would imagine would be hard to mix/master, and also have it flow right on a cd.....especially to make new mind blowing tunes...
McLilith
Ok fair point. I do want someone to get grandaddy dj's the other side mix though
KVR, my adult playground.
Please, call me Brice.
Please, call me Brice.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
I agree lads with all you have just said, totally. However, Im trying get into the production and engineering side of trance for the benefit of anyone whose interested here. I agree that labels are wrong, and a synths and synth etc. But what I'd like to hear about (with regards to this post at least) is people experiences with various synths at producing 'typical' trance sounds. Personally, I barely use synths in my production. The majority of my sounds are manipulations of accoustic recordings, samples and what not. I have no desire to purchase expensive equipment in the hope of getting a 100% authentic Tiesto lead!
Believe me, I know exactly how to program the full spectrum of trance cliches. I know what synths 'I' feel do them best, and which I cant get the results from. But I'd like to also get other peoples opinions. Considering the amount of threads that come about asking about these very matter... and more importantly how much said thread piss people off, i think it might be nice to get views out in the open?
For me, if wanted a typical super saw lead I'd reach for my JP. No question. If i wanted a cutting synth bass, I'd have my Virus to hand. That said, since i rarely need these sounds I manage to coax plenty more out of these boxes.
Believe me, I know exactly how to program the full spectrum of trance cliches. I know what synths 'I' feel do them best, and which I cant get the results from. But I'd like to also get other peoples opinions. Considering the amount of threads that come about asking about these very matter... and more importantly how much said thread piss people off, i think it might be nice to get views out in the open?
For me, if wanted a typical super saw lead I'd reach for my JP. No question. If i wanted a cutting synth bass, I'd have my Virus to hand. That said, since i rarely need these sounds I manage to coax plenty more out of these boxes.
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- Mighty_Musician
- 897 posts since 29 Jun, 2002 from Oklahoma
Well if you're using samples to make your own trance style, you might be the first to do this. Synth, synths help alot 
KVR, my adult playground.
Please, call me Brice.
Please, call me Brice.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
No, no. I mean recording sounds and using sound design to forge textures and timbres. For example, rather than use a synth pad, I might take some choir samples, string samples, whatever, and go to work on them to create the part Im looking for. Obviously, when i need a synth line I reach for a synth, but more often than not my sounds are created from audio.
I think you have me a little confused fella. I dont make trance music often, if ever. I make my music. Some times this has a 4/4 beat, sometimes its a break beat, sometimes its an American India tribal rhythm... whatever i feel like doin on the day. With this thread Im not asking your advice to get better at creating trance cliches! I saw a rare opportunity though to actually discuss this stuff without it getting blasted, so this i why i ask you regarding your own personal preferences.
I think you have me a little confused fella. I dont make trance music often, if ever. I make my music. Some times this has a 4/4 beat, sometimes its a break beat, sometimes its an American India tribal rhythm... whatever i feel like doin on the day. With this thread Im not asking your advice to get better at creating trance cliches! I saw a rare opportunity though to actually discuss this stuff without it getting blasted, so this i why i ask you regarding your own personal preferences.
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- Mighty_Musician
- 897 posts since 29 Jun, 2002 from Oklahoma
I and no else would blast you, it's a fair question. Yes for me, it is easier than the above just to use synths, but it sounds like you are branching out and doing some new things. It is cool and I would love to here some stuff with the above techniques used.tee boy wrote:No, no. I mean recording sounds and using sound design to forge textures and timbres.[/quote="tee boy"]
Totally with you.
tee boy wrote:I saw a rare opportunity though to actually discuss this stuff without it getting blasted, so this i why i ask you regarding your own personal preferences.
My personal preferences honestly again lie in the synths themselves. I made a 128 patch bank for vanguard, and I thought to myself, "okay these patches are so totally different as a whole", and that is what was so awesome about this 'simple' synth. The point is, I like to layer sounds sometimes, but sometimes it is not needed when you have that one lead that can hook the whole track, and just use pads and the drums section(s). Alot of trance is the same as far as structure I will honestly admit that, but when you can have the same 4 on the floor for so many artists, and still pull off a great track, it comes down to the rhythms you used and not the actual beat.
KVR, my adult playground.
Please, call me Brice.
Please, call me Brice.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Awesome, exactly the type of answer i was looking for!
Earlier in this thread someone piped up with a great idea. For all the thousands of people who come here and get made to feel for stupid for asking newbie trance questions, start a sticky with compiling everones knowledge and personal experience with the genre. Great, sounds like a plan to me! This is why Iv posted some of my favorite mixing and production techniques that i use for this type of music. I think it would be great if people like yourself could post (as you just did ) a few nuggets of info for the cause.
Whether people want to believe it or not, trance is extremely difficult to engineer. Ok, its easy to make a very bad trance tune, but no body want to do that! The top mix engineers have deep pockets full of little tried and tested techniques that make their mixes sound so much better than the average. Iv had the pleasure of speaking to people like this, although not with regard to this style. Maybe if we put our heads together and pool our thoughts, we might be able to create a thread which would actually answer some of the questions asked on this forum!
Earlier in this thread someone piped up with a great idea. For all the thousands of people who come here and get made to feel for stupid for asking newbie trance questions, start a sticky with compiling everones knowledge and personal experience with the genre. Great, sounds like a plan to me! This is why Iv posted some of my favorite mixing and production techniques that i use for this type of music. I think it would be great if people like yourself could post (as you just did
) a few nuggets of info for the cause.Whether people want to believe it or not, trance is extremely difficult to engineer. Ok, its easy to make a very bad trance tune, but no body want to do that! The top mix engineers have deep pockets full of little tried and tested techniques that make their mixes sound so much better than the average. Iv had the pleasure of speaking to people like this, although not with regard to this style. Maybe if we put our heads together and pool our thoughts, we might be able to create a thread which would actually answer some of the questions asked on this forum!