Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

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antic604
KVRAF
5120 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:42 am

masterhiggins wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:23 am
Lighten up, Francis. I do realize they’re geared for and optimized for different workflows.
I'm not convinced :P
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Bombadil
KVRAF
5766 posts since 31 Aug, 2013 from Far From the Twisted Reach of Crazy Sorrow

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:44 am

Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:54 am
Anyone have any numbers or we are just throwing opinions as facts?
Well, yup, but as I said, this was last year, and I mainly had a look to see how Cubase compared to Logic, and I noted the performance against other DAWs as well. I can't speak to the validity or reliability of the testing, but it seemed to have been accepted as valid. My experience with Cubase vs Logic was confirmed by the results.
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
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Passing Bye
KVRAF
1518 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:53 am

Understand, it was long ago when I last made such test's too, Logic actually got more optimized after that, remember that I found out almost equal Reaper vs Logic performance, never did Digital Performer tho, so taught anyone have some numbers or even better pictures/videos to share.

apoclypse
KVRist
277 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:02 am

Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:54 am
Anyone have any numbers or we are just throwing opinions as facts?
This is about a year old but it does show that Logic is clearly in the lead vs Reaper. So yes Logic is the clear winner against Reaper for at least this particular case. Considering the changes Apple made to Logic last year to make it even more efficient and to allow even larger projects. I don't see Reaper touching it, at least for large orchestral scoring.

https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... lts.82659/

Reaper fans have been saying Reaper is the most efficient DAW (mostly without proof). In that particular test Reaper comes up to about the same as every other DAW except Logic which easily beats them all.

So how about you post some numbers for Reaper's supposed performance dominance and we can compare.
Studio One 4.6 // Bitwig 3.0.3 // Logic Pro X 10.5 // Ableton 10 // Reason 9.5 // MPC // Force

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Calenberger
KVRian
1432 posts since 8 Sep, 2019 from Calenberg

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:25 am

apoclypse wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:02 am
Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:54 am
Anyone have any numbers or we are just throwing opinions as facts?
This is about a year old but it does show that Logic is clearly in the lead vs Reaper. So yes Logic is the clear winner against Reaper for at least this particular case. Considering the changes Apple made to Logic last year to make it even more efficient and to allow even larger projects. I don't see Reaper touching it, at least for large orchestral scoring.

https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... lts.82659/

Reaper fans have been saying Reaper is the most efficient DAW (mostly without proof). In that particular test Reaper comes up to about the same as every other DAW except Logic which easily beats them all.

So how about you post some numbers for Reaper's supposed performance dominance and we can compare.
Heresy! :evil:
The reaper will come to you... :borg:
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Passing Bye
KVRAF
1518 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:27 am

apoclypse wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:02 am
Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:54 am
Anyone have any numbers or we are just throwing opinions as facts?
This is about a year old but it does show that Logic is clearly in the lead vs Reaper. So yes Logic is the clear winner against Reaper for at least this particular case. Considering the changes Apple made to Logic last year to make it even more efficient and to allow even larger projects. I don't see Reaper touching it, at least for large orchestral scoring.

https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... lts.82659/

Reaper fans have been saying Reaper is the most efficient DAW (mostly without proof). In that particular test Reaper comes up to about the same as every other DAW except Logic which easily beats them all.
That's amazing, thank you!
So how about you post some numbers for Reaper's supposed performance dominance and we can compare.
I don't have horse in this race (don't use Reaper and last time I did the test it wasn't more efficient than Logic 9), just wanted to see stuff like this, opposed to usual "It's like that, because I said so".

apoclypse
KVRist
277 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:40 am

Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:27 am
apoclypse wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:02 am
Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:54 am
Anyone have any numbers or we are just throwing opinions as facts?
This is about a year old but it does show that Logic is clearly in the lead vs Reaper. So yes Logic is the clear winner against Reaper for at least this particular case. Considering the changes Apple made to Logic last year to make it even more efficient and to allow even larger projects. I don't see Reaper touching it, at least for large orchestral scoring.

https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... lts.82659/

Reaper fans have been saying Reaper is the most efficient DAW (mostly without proof). In that particular test Reaper comes up to about the same as every other DAW except Logic which easily beats them all.
That's amazing, thank you!
So how about you post some numbers for Reaper's supposed performance dominance and we can compare.
I don't have horse in this race (don't use Reaper and last time I did the test it wasn't more efficient than Logic 9), just wanted to see stuff like this, opposed to usual "It's like that, because I said so".
Sorry I actually meant to quote FMR's post above yours. Since they said it's hard to believe that Logic beats Reaper. Well, believe it.
Studio One 4.6 // Bitwig 3.0.3 // Logic Pro X 10.5 // Ableton 10 // Reason 9.5 // MPC // Force

machinesworking
KVRAF
2334 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:54 am

apoclypse wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:02 am
Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:54 am
Anyone have any numbers or we are just throwing opinions as facts?
This is about a year old but it does show that Logic is clearly in the lead vs Reaper. So yes Logic is the clear winner against Reaper for at least this particular case. Considering the changes Apple made to Logic last year to make it even more efficient and to allow even larger projects. I don't see Reaper touching it, at least for large orchestral scoring.

https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... lts.82659/

Reaper fans have been saying Reaper is the most efficient DAW (mostly without proof). In that particular test Reaper comes up to about the same as every other DAW except Logic which easily beats them all.

So how about you post some numbers for Reaper's supposed performance dominance and we can compare.
I really like dewdman in general, but I've gotten into it online with him and others about this. Any test not to right below failure for performance isn't really measuring anything. The objective of a performance test is to see how far your computer can go with a particular DAW before it kills the audio.

I've engaged in these tests over the years and one thing is consistent, that CPU gets used very eh? randomly. A DAW will get to 80% CPU use with 20 plug ins running, and but an additional 15 plug ins can be added in. Another DAW will get to 80% with 25 plug ins and only 5 more plug ins can be added.

In pure stress tests of how many virtual instruments of a specific kind can be run before the audio gets artifacts or crackling, Logic and DP are neck and neck these days, Reaper is slightly ahead, and oddly enough Bitwig does really well, even beating the others with Diva track counts. Live is a hog, pure and simple. My take away from tests I did earlier this year is that Bitwig proves that it's not all about buffers and performance oriented DAWs, and that DP finally caught up to Logic. Logic doesn't beat Reaper, but it's maybe 10-20% of a difference, it's not enough to change DAWs or anything, IMO 40% is though, so Live is getting the boot for Bitwig around here.

I think we should do this though, set up a test with simple parameters as a current "universal" test. I used Diva last year which is a good choice since it's a pig and most of us have it.

Passing Bye
KVRAF
1518 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:03 am

apoclypse wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:40 am
Sorry I actually meant to quote FMR's post above yours. Since they said it's hard to believe that Logic beats Reaper. Well, believe it.
Ahh, ok, makes sense. :)

apoclypse
KVRist
277 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:31 am

machinesworking wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:54 am
Logic doesn't beat Reaper, but it's maybe 10-20% of a difference, it's not enough to change DAWs or anything, IMO 40% is though, so Live is getting the boot for Bitwig around here.
Right but you don't have actual numbers at the moment so I'll take this with a grain of salt. My observation says otherwise. On every machine I've tried Logic handily beats Reaper.

I have yet to see any actual number from anyone making the claim that Reaper is the bets performing DAW.

I haven't updated Reaper so I don't know if a later version made changes to performance, but since at least 10.4.6, Logic has consistently been the top performing DAW in my setup. It's not even a contest.
Studio One 4.6 // Bitwig 3.0.3 // Logic Pro X 10.5 // Ableton 10 // Reason 9.5 // MPC // Force

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fmr
KVRAF
9571 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:22 am

apoclypse wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:40 am
Sorry I actually meant to quote FMR's post above yours. Since they said it's hard to believe that Logic beats Reaper. Well, believe it.
Sorry, but I just saw a spreadsheet with a bunch of figurews, without even a title saying what the figures represent, and just a mention to VEP (which I presume is Vienna Ensemble Pro).

CPU use with what? How many plug-ins and which ones, were used in the test? How was the test performed? That doesn't convoince me, and proves nothing, sorry. Percentages of around 30/35% of CPU mean that the DAW wasn't really tested. I wanted to know hom many plug-ins could be open in each one (NOT STOCK ONES, BUT THIRD PARTY - THE SAME FOR EVERY DAW) before the CPU is maxed.

And here what's been written by the author post himself:

"Here are some additional tests that would be interesting to do

How many tracks can be added before it starts dropping out audio, at various buffer sizes.
All of the above at lower audio buffer sizes
A test using generic instruments so that everyone can try the same test on their DAW, instead of using a real world cue, try to max out the max number of tracks in each case to see how big each DAW scenario can go before running out of steam with dropouts.
How low latency can each scenario go before getting drop outs
"

EDIT: He tested using a ET orchestral MIDI version downloaded freom the VSL site, and which only used VSL libraries. And he tested with a buffer 0f 1024. He just proved that ALL DAWs could handle a massive orchestration with a high enough buffer. So, what's tested?
Last edited by fmr on Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

Passing Bye
KVRAF
1518 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:25 am

machinesworking wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:54 am

Any test not to right below failure for performance isn't really measuring anything. The objective of a performance test is to see how far your computer can go with a particular DAW before it kills the audio.

I've engaged in these tests over the years and one thing is consistent, that CPU gets used very eh? randomly. A DAW will get to 80% CPU use with 20 plug ins running, and but an additional 15 plug ins can be added in. Another DAW will get to 80% with 25 plug ins and only 5 more plug ins can be added.
Absolutely agree, I test the same way myself.
oddly enough Bitwig does really well, even beating the others with Diva track counts.
I think it has to do with your particular configuration combo, can't really put my hand on anything particular, but it has to do with Xeons and how Diva performs in Bitwig, it's no secret that both firms are close and it's no secret that U He knows how to code equally good for macOS, as I recall you couldn't repeat those numbers on machine with i series Intel processor and did you managed with any other synths from other vendors?

apoclypse
KVRist
277 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:51 pm

fmr wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:22 am
apoclypse wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:40 am
Sorry I actually meant to quote FMR's post above yours. Since they said it's hard to believe that Logic beats Reaper. Well, believe it.
Sorry, but I just saw a spreadsheet with a bunch of figurews, without even a title saying what the figures represent, and just a mention to VEP (which I presume is Vienna Ensemble Pro).

CPU use with what? How many plug-ins and which ones, were used in the test? How was the test performed? That doesn't convoince me, and proves nothing, sorry. Percentages of around 30/35% of CPU mean that the DAW wasn't really tested. I wanted to know hom many plug-ins could be open in each one (NOT STOCK ONES, BUT THIRD PARTY - THE SAME FOR EVERY DAW) before the CPU is maxed.

And here what's been written by the author post himself:

"Here are some additional tests that would be interesting to do

How many tracks can be added before it starts dropping out audio, at various buffer sizes.
All of the above at lower audio buffer sizes
A test using generic instruments so that everyone can try the same test on their DAW, instead of using a real world cue, try to max out the max number of tracks in each case to see how big each DAW scenario can go before running out of steam with dropouts.
How low latency can each scenario go before getting drop outs
"

EDIT: He tested using a ET orchestral MIDI version downloaded freom the VSL site, and which only used VSL libraries. And he tested with a buffer 0f 1024. He just proved that ALL DAWs could handle a massive orchestration with a high enough buffer. So, what's tested?
I think the point of that test was to see which DAW can could do the same test more efficiently. In this case the criteria for efficiency is doing the same task with less CPU usage.

All the other things the author said would be interestin would be great but right now we don't have those numbers and I'd rather have numbers than someone just saying DP and Reaper are more efficient without any proof or numbers to back that up.
Studio One 4.6 // Bitwig 3.0.3 // Logic Pro X 10.5 // Ableton 10 // Reason 9.5 // MPC // Force

chk071
KVRAF
24109 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:07 pm

Mentions of Reaper on this page: 50.

Wasn't this a Logic Pro thread? :P

Doesn't surprise me at all that Logic comes out as the most CPU efficient under Mac OS, by the way. If Microsoft developed a DAW, it would probably also be the most CPU efficient on Windows.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
11472 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Logic Pro X Update around the corner? (with screenshot)

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:21 pm

All threads about other DAWs eventually get round to discussion of Bitwig or Reaper.

It’s kind of like Godwin’s law where eventually Nazis or Hitler will get a mention, but here it’s Bitwig and Reaper.

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