DUNE 3 is now available!!

[AnX]

antidote is NOT Dune3

[pierb]

Hey guys

Anyone tried doing FM using the mod matrix (not the FM oscillators) in Dune 3? For some reason I can't get it to work as expected.

In Bazille, Operator, etc, I can quickly dial a trance FM lead type of sound but when trying to do the same in Dune it sounds more harsh. I'm no FM expert but I feel like I'm missing something.

First I set audio rate modulation in the settings. Then use the mod matrix to modulate the pitch of OSC 1 with OSC 2 and play around with the oscillator semitones (since I don't have ratios). Is there any trick that I'm missing?

Let me know if this is not clear and I can upload some audio examples.

[recursive one]

Hey guys

Anyone tried doing FM using the mod matrix (not the FM oscillators) in Dune 3? For some reason I can't get it to work as expected.

In Bazille, Operator, etc, I can quickly dial a trance FM lead type of sound but when trying to do the same in Dune it sounds more harsh. I'm no FM expert but I feel like I'm missing something.

First I set audio rate modulation in the settings. Then use the mod matrix to modulate the pitch of OSC 1 with OSC 2 and play around with the oscillator semitones (since I don't have ratios). Is there any trick that I'm missing?

Let me know if this is not clear and I can upload some audio examples.

The "psytrance FM"?

- Try using sinewaves or triangles (not saws)
- Try using 12 or 24 semitones modulation ranges
- Dry dropping the pitch of the modulation oscillator 1 or 2 octaves lower than the main osc
- Try using LP or notch filetr (or both) to remove the harshness
- Prepare to spend some time finding the sweet spot for everything

I managed to get agreeable "psy FM" patches of Dune using mod matrix, don't remember the exact settings now.

[pierb]

The "psytrance FM"?

- Try using sinewaves or triangles (not saws)
- Try using 12 or 24 semitones modulation ranges
- Dry dropping the pitch of the modulation oscillator 1 or 2 octaves lower than the main osc
- Try using LP or notch filetr (or both) to remove the harshness
- Prepare to spend some time finding the sweet spot for everything

I managed to get agreeable "psy FM" patches of Dune using mod matrix, don't remember the exact settings now.

Yeah, that type of sound.

For those that don't know what a "psytrance FM lead" is see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6iTmLHrMdM

I tried those tricks but I couldn't nail it. In Bazille or Operator these types of sound are trivial to accomplish. At least the starting point can be dialed-in very quickly.

I read somewhere that, generally, FM in synths is not really FM but PM (phase modulation). Maybe this is why Dune is behaving differently when modulating pitch?

[recursive one]

I read somewhere that, generally, FM in synths is not really FM but PM (phase modulation). Maybe this is why Dune is behaving differently when modulating pitch?

That might be the case, try modulating the phase then.

Dune3 never was my to-go synth for this kind of stuff, I tried to pull something off just to chek if it was possible but for actual tracks I prefer using Serum, Bazille or Tal Mod for such sounds.

[pierb]

I read somewhere that, generally, FM in synths is not really FM but PM (phase modulation). Maybe this is why Dune is behaving differently when modulating pitch?

That might be the case, try modulating the phase then.

Yep, I did try that.

The only modulation destination for phase was "Osc Init Phase" which had no effect since it's just the starting phase of the oscillator when the note is triggered.

Maybe Synapse Audio can shed some light into what's going on?

[recursive one]

I read somewhere that, generally, FM in synths is not really FM but PM (phase modulation). Maybe this is why Dune is behaving differently when modulating pitch?

That might be the case, try modulating the phase then.

Yep, I did try that.

The only modulation destination for phase was "Osc Init Phase" which had no effect since it's just the starting phase of the oscillator when the note is triggered.

Maybe Synapse Audio can shed some light into what's going on?

Try using Const as mod source for init phase and then modulate the amount of that modulation with an osc using another matrix slot.

Just a wild guess, not sure if it will actually make any sense.

[pierb]

Try using Const as mod source for init phase and then modulate the amount of that modulation with an osc using another matrix slot.

Just a wild guess, not sure if it will actually make any sense.

I will try it later but I don't think it will work. Init phase doesn't change while the oscillator is running, the value is only read when the note is triggered.

[AnX]

or use the FM osc section....

[recursive one]

Try using Const as mod source for init phase and then modulate the amount of that modulation with an osc using another matrix slot.

Just a wild guess, not sure if it will actually make any sense.

I will try it later but I don't think it will work. Init phase doesn't change while the oscillator is running, the value is only read when the note is triggered.

Yep, you are likely right.

[cytospur]

Try using Const as mod source for init phase and then modulate the amount of that modulation with an osc using another matrix slot.

Just a wild guess, not sure if it will actually make any sense.

I will try it later but I don't think it will work. Init phase doesn't change while the oscillator is running, the value is only read when the note is triggered.

Yep, you are likely right.

That won't work. There is a way to do it with wavetables. I think that I might have detailed how already in this thread, but I'm on holiday and don't have time to check. I'll hopefully find some time to give some details over the next few days.

[Teksonik]

Here's one of Cytospur's posts on the subject of FM. You can find others by searching this thread for FM.

@Engee : sorry, I misunderstood

Not entirely as I did also suggested 4 operators instead of 3 for D3 even before it was released.

Anyway, still the possibilities are great with just 3 operators with the help of the modulation matrix as mentioned before

We thought about 4 operators, the main issue is UI space, increased sound design complexity and the CPU usage when using all 32 oscillators per block (which would amount to 128 operators that must be rendered for 4-op-FM just for a single voice, not yet factoring in multiple layers or using both oscillator blocks).

Richard

You can do 4-op FM synthesis by doing the following:

Make a wavetable in osc1 using the formula: -sin(2*x*pi+2*y*pi)
Add Const +50 Osc 1 WT Position in the mod matrix
Set osc2 to FM
Set osc3 to sine
Add Osc3 0 Osc1 WT Position in the mod matrix
Add Osc2 0 Osc1 WT Position in the mod matrix
Change the values of the last two mod matrix entries to taste for a static sound.
Even better is to set up chained mod matrix entries where envelopes and/or LFOs are used to control the MM amounts for those particular entries. Leave the envelope/LFO entries with AMT=0 and use Velocity to modulate those.

All 8 4op algorithms can be done this way, albeit with some compromise on algo3.

Set modulation rate to anything other than normal for a cleaner sound.

What would be nice is to have inputs from outside of the FM module to modulate the phases of A, B, and or C in one oscillator by the output of the other oscillators.

[pierb]

or use the FM osc section....

I'd gladly use that if I could use other waveforms.

[pierb]

Here's one of Cytospur's posts on the subject of FM. You can find others by searching this thread for FM.

Thanks!

[recursive one]

or use the FM osc section....

I'd gladly use that if I could use other waveforms.

One thing to note is that you can have the FM params as targets in the modmatrix. You can modulate them at audio rate which can add some grittiness to the sound which you probably miss in the FM osc.