NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
electro
KVRAF
4646 posts since 6 May, 2002

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:45 am

Matt_NI, how about all the discontinued 32-bit NI apps being re-released without Copy Protection as Freeware.
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

Matt_NI
KVRist
54 posts since 11 Mar, 2020

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:48 am

surreal wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:53 am
Matt_NI wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:58 am
Vertion wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:38 am
@Matt_NI:

Just to clarify, NI orginally intended to abandon all future activation for these products. But now due to complaint, NI will continue to activate the products through a more obscure channel. Specifically requiring the customer to contact NI support via live chat and requesting activation.

Will activation support for these products continue into perpetuity? Or will abandonment of activation for these products simply be deferred to a later date vaguely in the future?
I think you can find a pretty good summary of it in this thread itself even though KVR isn't the only channels we are exchanging with users.

It's really not that obscure. You would just need to contact our account support if you need to re-activate some of the products listed on our announcement. We already have users requesting manual activation now so I imagine it won't be much different. We are confident enough with the amount of activation actually required on these instruments and this wouldn't really impact our workload.

It would be hard to predict what will be the status in 15 years but as far as we stand now, this will be a permanent solution for products affected by this change.
There has been many complaints listed here in KVR about NI slow or non existent customer support so I dont see this as a viable answer... as you said the amount of reactivations is minimal.. so why not just leave the service centre servers just running as it is.. nothing needs to be changed or reinvented ...nor time-wasting customer account supportservice staff doing manual activations, I am sure this will free up Ni customer support to attend to more relevant and important issues and queries. .
I will not deny the fact that our technical support is sometime overwhelmed by the amount of incoming requests but activation topics do not fall under their responsability. This would be handled by account support and they have direct line of contact including live chat available at least 6 hours each day. I have also just checked the first reply time via email and despite being incredibly busy, we stand at 20 hours. That is not even taking into consideration that this process could be automated on our end to some degree.

Again leaving Service Center and older activation mechanisms as you see today is not an option.

chk071
KVRAF
24078 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:49 am

electro wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:45 am
Matt_NI, how about all the discontinued 32-bit NI apps being re-released without Copy Protection as Freeware.
Image

How about releasing yourself as freeware?
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
65159 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:52 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:49 am
electro wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:45 am
Matt_NI, how about all the discontinued 32-bit NI apps being re-released without Copy Protection as Freeware.
Image

How about releasing yourself as freeware?
to me my xmen!

electro
KVRAF
4646 posts since 6 May, 2002

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:24 am

Why not? 64 bit started with Kontakt 3.5.
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

chk071
KVRAF
24078 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:28 am

Why would they? What's the point in releasing old tech, which isn't even sure to run fine on newer computers, and which the least people will still be able to use, because it's 32-bit? What exactly is the point? Even Steinberg released their old VST plugins from the stone age as 64-bit. THAT'S the way to do it, if then, not showcasing your plugins with old, possible broken tech.

I think musicians really should stick to making music, they simply suck in business things...
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

electro
KVRAF
4646 posts since 6 May, 2002

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:35 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:28 am
Why would they? What's the point in releasing old tech, which isn't even sure to run fine on newer computers
For compatibility's sake so you will always be able to run it on legacy computers. Propellerheads did it with Rebirth and NI can do the same with those old plugins. The 64 bit version of Kontakt 2 already exists and its called Kontakt 6.
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

chk071
KVRAF
24078 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:38 am

electro wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:35 am
Propellerheads did it with Rebirth
Yeah, awesome. It came with a 16-bit installer which couldn't even be run on 64-bit computers, and now Propellerhead don't even offer it anymore. ;)

Tells you something? I guess not.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

User avatar
Vertion
KVRian
674 posts since 29 Oct, 2016

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:59 am

Matt_NI wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:31 am
Vertion wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:57 am

Matt_NI, Thank you for all you have done to keep us informed. I appreciate that you have been a great messenger through this situation. However, I would like someone from NI who actually has some pull in the company to answer these questions. A decision maker who can step up to the plate and give us concrete answers and reasons for these decisions. PAK has some solid points, I’d like to see what the decision makers have to say about it, if they are willing.
Do you mean for that particular question about giving away these legacy products ?
All the communication you see is approved by the team in charge of this topic and so the lead. That's pretty much how it works and so if you need anything specific addressed then I usually just take note and see what I can get. For example, It was mentioned a lot that some comments were necessary about the EULA and I will get back on this topic as soon as I have relevant information to share and where it all stands moving forward.
Matt_Ni,

I appreciate your timely response. Please understand that NI’s true bosses are the customer, as we are the ones who keep your business going and a paycheck in your hand. Your internal policies and politics answer to us as a whole, not the other way around. Your answers are filled with uncertainty and deference to an unknown decision maker. As customers we deserve clear cut answers for products we paid for, especially regarding their fate. If these products were decided not to be released as freeware, we expect a clear explanation from one who made that choice. We are not at the whims of those you report to, they are at ours, as we as a whole decide the fate of NI. We deserve respect from your executives, and to have clear decisions and explanations for these decisions where the products we paid for are concerned. I’m not going to play along with a game of false placation to people whose sole responsibility is to placate to us, their customer base. In that sense, your internal policies are irrelevant to the larger situation, regarding your customer base: We want clear answers and decision makers to step up to answer the call in some way. I have spent a lot of money on your products and I am not the only one, and we deserve to know their fate without all the political obscurity. Your PR is painfully transparent, and it would do NI more good for someone with executive power to deliver clear cut solid answers to our questions in certain terms rather than hide behind you. Please understand, I must be direct in my response as I expect the same in return. Thank you.
SLH - Yes, I am a woman, deal with it.

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
65159 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:11 am

thats not going to happen.
executives pay people to take the shit.

they are also often terrible communicators because theyre used to saying how something is or should be and everyone making it so.

try it in your local supermarket, at best you get a store manager.

surreal
KVRian
1476 posts since 3 Dec, 2006

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 am

Matt_NI wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:39 am
surreal wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:22 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:55 pm
surreal wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:46 pm
and I was told that a third of their workforce internationally were retrenched... maybe 1/5 of their workforce in Berlin was laid off
You were told incorrectly. NI had 500-ish people around the world before the layoffs, and 100 people (around the world, not just in Berlin office) were laid off. Do the math. :)


Now, what exactly was "hacked" on your computer by Service Center, because I find that hard to believe, as there is no malicious code in it whatsoever?
Ok.my sums dont add up in math as according to you I was misinformed... but when native access is installed and two month later my service center app just "mysteriously" dissappears into thin air off my computer after a native access update ..well that equates to "hacking" and equates malware activity in my opinion. Strange that your memory is shortlived, when I previously mentioned this unacceptable and hacking behavior your answer was just I should simply just reinstall service center and it should show up. It was this very act of Native Instruments disabling and crippling service center on my computer that threw red lights flashing, highlighting NI future plans to force this issue we have at hand. In other word their attitude was... well screw Pro53 (which was working pefectly on my system) make it "dysfunctional" and that it cant be "reactivated" so that the end user can simply just be forced to repurchase the equivalent in a different reactor form again.
I'm sorry but this is literally impossible.
How do you see us removing application you have locally installed?
Also Service Center has been discontinued for a couple of years already but was still in working state as opposed to moving to the complete end of life process in the next few months.
And Pro53 is actually not even impacted by this change since it last version uses another activation mechanism which is still used today. More on that soon
Pro53 was on the list of products NI initially posted that would be discontinued via Service Centre. I got it as a part of Komplete 5. I shall wait and see what "official" announcement Native Instruments will make in this regard.. but I wont hold my breath lest I suffocate. What was the last versions of Pro 53 activation? The last update was 4 years ago and it was still with service centre..

Matt_NI
KVRist
54 posts since 11 Mar, 2020

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:40 am

Vertion wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:59 am
Matt_NI wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:31 am
Vertion wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:57 am

Matt_NI, Thank you for all you have done to keep us informed. I appreciate that you have been a great messenger through this situation. However, I would like someone from NI who actually has some pull in the company to answer these questions. A decision maker who can step up to the plate and give us concrete answers and reasons for these decisions. PAK has some solid points, I’d like to see what the decision makers have to say about it, if they are willing.
Do you mean for that particular question about giving away these legacy products ?
All the communication you see is approved by the team in charge of this topic and so the lead. That's pretty much how it works and so if you need anything specific addressed then I usually just take note and see what I can get. For example, It was mentioned a lot that some comments were necessary about the EULA and I will get back on this topic as soon as I have relevant information to share and where it all stands moving forward.
Matt_Ni,

I appreciate your timely response. Please understand that NI’s true bosses are the customer, as we are the ones who keep your business going and a paycheck in your hand. Your internal policies and politics answer to us as a whole, not the other way around. Your answers are filled with uncertainty and deference to an unknown decision maker. As customers we deserve clear cut answers for products we paid for, especially regarding their fate. If these products were decided not to be released as freeware, we expect a clear explanation from one who made that choice. We are not at the whims of those you report to, they are at ours, as we as a whole decide the fate of NI. We deserve respect from your executives, and to have clear decisions and explanations for these decisions where the products we paid for are concerned. I’m not going to play along with a game of false placation to people whose sole responsibility is to placate to us, their customer base. In that sense, your internal policies are irrelevant to the larger situation, regarding your customer base: We want clear answers and decision makers to step up to answer the call in some way. I have spent a lot of money on your products and I am not the only one, and we deserve to know their fate without all the political obscurity. Your PR is painfully transparent, and it would do NI more good for someone with executive power to deliver clear cut solid answers to our questions in certain terms rather than hide behind you. Please understand, I must be direct in my response as I expect the same in return. Thank you.
I understand you have to be direct and I will be as clear as I can. I didn't say anything else but our users are a priority and that's exactly why I make sure to have as much time as possible to read through the comments and answer when I can. That is also why we changed our approach and admitted that we did not anticipated the announcement would have such impact.

Decisions have already been made and we already mentioned here and on various platforms that we are working on a new activation tool to address the end of life. That was our initial goal and we committed to it now.

This entire project is now a team effort so we can better address every detail. You wouldn't be able to find one individual addressing every single aspect of it in depth right here. You may have the impression that one individual is making all these decisions and while our internal organisation is indeed irrelevant for customers, it's still important to understand this part.
Just to give you an indication, we need to address questions about topics such as legacy activation mechanisms, product development, our EULA, partnering or even the delivery of our newsletter (since it was a concerns for many here). Obviously a lot was not addressed yet and it in some instance it takes some time to get the right piece of information but we will report back as soon as possible.

I suppose we can also draw the line at how specific you want your answer to be. I believe most people participating in this thread want detailed answers and so that is why it's important to address these questions to the relevant team. Otherwise, you may actually be stuck with a real PR exercise and a lot of unanswered questions at the end.

Again, if there is a specific part you need more detail about - feel free to ask so I can look into it.

Matt_NI
KVRist
54 posts since 11 Mar, 2020

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:45 am

surreal wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 am
Matt_NI wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:39 am
surreal wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:22 am
EvilDragon wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:55 pm
surreal wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:46 pm
and I was told that a third of their workforce internationally were retrenched... maybe 1/5 of their workforce in Berlin was laid off
You were told incorrectly. NI had 500-ish people around the world before the layoffs, and 100 people (around the world, not just in Berlin office) were laid off. Do the math. :)


Now, what exactly was "hacked" on your computer by Service Center, because I find that hard to believe, as there is no malicious code in it whatsoever?
Ok.my sums dont add up in math as according to you I was misinformed... but when native access is installed and two month later my service center app just "mysteriously" dissappears into thin air off my computer after a native access update ..well that equates to "hacking" and equates malware activity in my opinion. Strange that your memory is shortlived, when I previously mentioned this unacceptable and hacking behavior your answer was just I should simply just reinstall service center and it should show up. It was this very act of Native Instruments disabling and crippling service center on my computer that threw red lights flashing, highlighting NI future plans to force this issue we have at hand. In other word their attitude was... well screw Pro53 (which was working pefectly on my system) make it "dysfunctional" and that it cant be "reactivated" so that the end user can simply just be forced to repurchase the equivalent in a different reactor form again.
I'm sorry but this is literally impossible.
How do you see us removing application you have locally installed?
Also Service Center has been discontinued for a couple of years already but was still in working state as opposed to moving to the complete end of life process in the next few months.
And Pro53 is actually not even impacted by this change since it last version uses another activation mechanism which is still used today. More on that soon
Pro53 was on the list of products NI initially posted that would be discontinued via Service Centre. I got it as a part of Komplete 5. I shall wait and see what "official" announcement Native Instruments will make in this regard.. but I wont hold my breath lest I suffocate. What was the last versions of Pro 53 activation? The last update was 4 years ago and it was still with service centre..
I can already tell you that Pro 53 version 3.0.3.001 is using an activation mechanism that will not be removed. We are still looking at which products will be able to be automatically activate after the deadline so we can remove them from the list.

Edrec
KVRer
18 posts since 18 Apr, 2019

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:50 am

Hey Guys! Most of the titles on this list are super old, Pro-53 was released in 2002! I used to run it on OS9. The fact that it's still usable now is itself pretty amazing.

At the end of the day old software gets discontinued as technology advances. The cost of keeping something like Service Center going, salaries for people to maintain it, the cost of keeping a server running etc, this isn't insignificant, especially considering that the number of activations for the discontinued products it serves are probably very few. This money could be invested in developing new technologies, new software. This is just a smart business decision, companies need to be smart and efficient if they are to survive in a pretty saturated market.

I think with the current global situation we need to send good thoughts to all the companies that are doing their best to keep going and stay in business. Some of the comments in this thread have been quite aggressive and I think now it's time to move on and make some music with the thousands of titles that are still supported.

It sounds like Matt and his colleagues are doing their best to find a solution to keep as many people happy as possible, I am sure they will figure something out.

PAK
KVRian
892 posts since 20 Feb, 2003

Re: NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

Post Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:17 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:38 am
electro wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:35 am
Propellerheads did it with Rebirth
Yeah, awesome. It came with a 16-bit installer which couldn't even be run on 64-bit computers, and now Propellerhead don't even offer it anymore. ;) Tells you something? I guess not.
It tells you they set it free. So what happened? Someone took it and tried to fix installer the issues and posted it on KVR only the other month. That wouldn't have happened if they hadn't given it away! Isn't that kinda cool, outside of the fact it avoids the sorts of issues with having to keep supporting products just because someone wants to install it on their old machine?
Last edited by PAK on Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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