Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

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chk071
KVRAF
24073 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:10 am

DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
...what exactly needs to be updated?
Yeah, that's a good question. 20 years ago, there may have been 2 or 3 updates per version, now we have 10-20, and people still need more updates. What for? At least if the program is running properly.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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Rivanni
KVRist
328 posts since 4 Feb, 2017

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:21 am

DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
...what exactly needs to be updated?

Ableton Live is a mature product. There won't be updates until the team comes with some significant breakthrough.

Also, Live 10 is over 2 years old. There was free 10.5 update last year. They're probably preparing major features for version 11 now.
10.5?? They're still at 10.1.

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Yorrrrrr
KVRian
955 posts since 25 Sep, 2011 from Colombia

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:42 am

Rivanni wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:21 am
DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
...what exactly needs to be updated?

Ableton Live is a mature product. There won't be updates until the team comes with some significant breakthrough.

Also, Live 10 is over 2 years old. There was free 10.5 update last year. They're probably preparing major features for version 11 now.
10.5?? They're still at 10.1.
Indeed. The version in beta testing right now is 10.1.13

10.5 is not even close.

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bmanic
KVRAF
8602 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:18 am

DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
...what exactly needs to be updated?
How about adding such a simple feature as "transpose all selected midi clips". Yeah.. you can't do that yet in this amazing piece of software. You can transpose any audio clip, but not midi. :roll:

Very mature software.

Also the Push integration could be a LOT better considering how long it's been out.

There's no way sugarcoating this: Ableton is _extremely_ slow when it comes to updates and innovation.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

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Vladislav_Gronk
KVRist
75 posts since 14 Sep, 2019

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:29 am

I agree, there's no denying that Ableton's been extremely slow on updates recently. Hopefully it means that they're cooking up something big.
DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
...what exactly needs to be updated?
I don't know, how about PDC that actually works. Or at least a keyboard shortcut for the legato button in MIDI clips. :neutral:
DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
Also, Live 10 is over 2 years old. There was free 10.5 update last year. They're probably preparing major features for version 11 now.
No, there wasn't any 10.5 update last year. We are still on 10.1.

andypryce
KVRist
280 posts since 2 Nov, 2014

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:24 am

docbot wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:44 pm
Considering how successful Ableton is I'm wondering why they're so slow to release updates/new features. Is there a specific reason for this?
Spoiled and don't care :lol:

worldfever
KVRist
193 posts since 13 Oct, 2015

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:36 am

while I love and only use ableton, I agree that it could use more frequent updates. Still waiting for that MPE support, come on ableton, you're like dead last with that :D
And I feel like there is stuff they could still implement featurewise. Take comping, integrated pitch correction à la flexpitch, some basic score/sheet function, dedicated imaging/stereo stock effects, better and more diverse reverbs/reverb modes(!!) (just look at logic pro chromaverb for example, the ableton stock reverb is just awful both sound and controlwise in my opinion)
These are just things that I came up with on the spot, I feel like saying ableton couldnt use more updates is making a bit easy (even though I agree that it's a mature product for sure!)

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DJ Warmonger
KVRAF
3789 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:24 am

10.5?? They're still at 10.1.
Oops, my bad.

But the conclusion stands true :shrug:

I'm fine with what Ableton is ATM and don't need any urgent updates. Better go make some music during this time ;)
http://djwarmonger.wordpress.com/
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)

machinesworking
KVRAF
2326 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:52 am

Max4Live is way more powerful than anything Bitwig is doing with Grid, there's no comparison. The video integration is just insane. If you're into creating your own performance software and handy with code, then M4L is going to mean that Bitwig can't compare, not in the slightest.

Personally I'm more into CPU performance, the delay compensation for hardware, and the MPE support that Bitwig has so I'm looking into Bitwig, but in no way does that make Live some sort of ne'er do well has been.

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antic604
KVRAF
5095 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:06 am

DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
...what exactly needs to be updated?

Ableton Live is a mature product. There won't be updates until the team comes with some significant breakthrough.
Alias / Linked clips? (Bitwig needs this badly, too)
Proper comping features? (likewise)
MPE?
Sandboxing of M4L so it doesn't bring down the whole project when it inevitably crashes?
Last edited by antic604 on Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604
KVRAF
5095 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:08 am

bmanic wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:18 am
DJ Warmonger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:44 am
...what exactly needs to be updated?
How about adding such a simple feature as "transpose all selected midi clips". Yeah.. you can't do that yet in this amazing piece of software. You can transpose any audio clip, but not midi. :roll:
That's what MIDI FX are for - just put a note transposer in front of the devices chain (and automate on/off, modulate it, etc.)
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

jonljacobi
KVRian
1460 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:15 am

1. I think they're justifiably proud of what they've got, if perhaps a bit too much so. But it works very, very well once you know it.

2. They don't want to rock the live performance boat. I'm constantly seeing feature requests that would obviously get in the way of that. In fact, a lot of feature requests for stuff that's actually already there. However, I don't quite understand the reluctance to add some things via options. There's a show plug-ins in the mixer option so obviously they've thought about broadening the appeal.

3. They spent a lot of time and energy on the Push controller and have to worry about the synergy with that.

4. The original implementation cut some MIDI corners that will require an extensive rewrite to handle things like MPE, or MIDI 2.0. Seeing as they were on the committee, I have a feeling this will be the next big upgrade.

5. It might be a financial decision to string out updates and upgrades. Maintain revenue.

I can think of at least a dozen things they could do that would easily improve the program and address user requests. And I don't quite understand the glacial pace myself. But while some of the little things frustrate, I have zero problems getting done what I need to get done with Live.

Trancit
KVRAF
2741 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:57 am

machinesworking wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:52 am
...
Max4Live is way more powerful than anything Bitwig is doing with Grid, there's no comparison. The video integration is just insane. If you're into creating your own performance software and handy with code, then M4L is going to mean that Bitwig can't compare, not in the slightest.
...
You don´t get the point...

The Grid was never thought as a competitor for full blown modular enviroments developed since 20 years...
To create a full blown synth in Max4Live you have to study rocket science first...
With the Grid you can put a monkey in front and he would do something useful in seconds with it...

What do you serve millions of features if it´s simply not useable for the bigger crowd...
I would bet that at least 90% of Ableton Suite users do not have any clue to use Max4Live properly and just use it as a preset framework to load stuff others made...

Again I would bet the at least 90% of Bitwig users are very well able to create a vast mayority of sounds they like in the Grid within minutes and even enjoy it...

Do you see the difference???

Both of them have their main emphasis...
Ableton´s lies more in sequencing/ arranging workflow while offering a ton of very good and very useful instruments and FX right out of the box...

Bitwig´s main emphasis lies more in sound design and modulation... offering a ton of smaller instruments and FX which aren´t that impressive on their own they made them in a way which invites everybody to combine/modulate/ build up something unique, something great and useful with ease and fun...

One cannot compete with the other in their respective strength but overall considered I see Bitwig´s future much much brighter than Ableton´s...
What the Bitwig guys have set up basically overnight wipes the floor what Ableton came up with in the same time...

Bitwig is now 6 years old... means it came out 2014... Ableton 9 was released 2013...
Means everything in Bitwig was developed in the same time the Ableton guys needed to bring up one major release to Live... that´s quite poor in relation...

So for me, Bitwig guys are still hungry ... they want to bring up something...while Ableton stagnates... they are properly too sucessful... there seem to be no ambition anymore, perhaps no visions anymore... who was really excited about the V10 update???

It´s like with every big imperium ever was in this world... they get decadent until they die away...

dreamstate42
KVRist
59 posts since 13 Jan, 2019

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:25 am

Trancit wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:57 am
One cannot compete with the other in their respective strength but overall considered I see Bitwig´s future much much brighter than Ableton´s...
What the Bitwig guys have set up basically overnight wipes the floor what Ableton came up with in the same time...

Bitwig is now 6 years old... means it came out 2014... Ableton 9 was released 2013...
Means everything in Bitwig was developed in the same time the Ableton guys needed to bring up one major release to Live... that´s quite poor in relation...

So for me, Bitwig guys are still hungry ... they want to bring up something...while Ableton stagnates... they are properly too sucessful... there seem to be no ambition anymore, perhaps no visions anymore... who was really excited about the V10 update???

It´s like with every big imperium ever was in this world... they get decadent until they die away...
While I agree with what you wrote in the first part, I have to disagree with the part I quoted.

That's not really how software development works. You cannot properly compare the development speed of two pieces of software like that. There are so many variables that influence the speed of development that don't say anything about the companies involved, but are rather "the nature of the beast".

Bitwig started from zero, so that had no technical debt to take care of. They were able to make a plan, and build frameworks that would support what they planned. If you have a couple of talented programmers and a solid development plan, that does not necessarily take a long time (as shown by Bitwig). Bitwig also did not have any existing users, so they were not held back by any existing demands or expectations. They were also able to learn from Ableton and could avoid mistakes that Ableton had to make in order to learn. That's the benefit of "not being the first". Also: smaller team = quicker decision-making.

Ableton has "19 years of code" to handle. That is most likely a lot of tech debt. Not only that, they have a hardware product that needs to integrate well with their software, so any change they want to make needs to be cosigned by another team entirely. They have a lot of existing users now that have demands and expectations in terms of compatibility and whatnot. They've also grown with the general demand for their software in terms of staff, so more people means more teams means more coordination efforts between teams. They might have gotten a little bit complacent, I wouldn't even disagree with that.

Personally, I would not draw any conclusions from development speed that could not simply be attributed to the quirks of software development itself.
Frequently changing DAW of choice...

machinesworking
KVRAF
2326 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:33 pm

Trancit wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:57 am
You don´t get the point...

The Grid was never thought as a competitor for full blown modular enviroments developed since 20 years..


..........So for me, Bitwig guys are still hungry ... they want to bring up something...while Ableton stagnates... they are properly too sucessful... there seem to be no ambition anymore, perhaps no visions anymore... who was really excited about the V10 update???

It´s like with every big imperium ever was in this world... they get decadent until they die away...
You don't get it.
machinesworking wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:31 am
Live has obvious strengths and I don't trust anyone who has emotional blanket statement responses to DAW vs DAW type stuff. It's interesting to compare, but not interesting to listen to someone act like some DAW is their college football team. :roll:
You're responding to me responding to someone doing just that, and you're off on a tangent, I never said Max4Live was easier, I said it was vastly more powerful, that can't be denied. Your personal taste isn't what I was talking about, I'm talking about people being emotionally invested in a DAW and not being able to look clearly at the differences.

All this stuff is so crazy to me, you never mentioned video, because it doesn't fit your narrative... and again, I'm in the process of choosing Bitwig over Live, but I'm not unaware or willing to overlook Live's obvious strengths.

IMO most DAWs have some area they're much more powerful than others in, and it's not a game of winner takes all anymore. There's plenty of room to discuss what you like and don't like about them all without it getting to the level of English football thugs.

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