Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
Trancit
KVRAF
2741 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:02 pm

Yorrrrrr wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:24 pm
...But Bitwig is nowhere near as successful as Live. ...
If they would have been released at the same time I doubt that Ableton would have won through that strong...

Ableton has the advantage of having been the first DAW with more than 15 lead with this kind of workflow DAW and isn´t a bad product neither...
Bitwig had the advantage of having a example to learn from and not doing the same mistakes again...

But as a newcomer if I had to decide between those 2 I would pick Bitwig for sure... featurewise and in regards of the future

docbot
KVRist
196 posts since 4 Apr, 2006

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:07 pm

I get the "don't change a winning horse" argument about Ableton Live. But it seems most people actually don't want a big change to Live, but rather quit small usability improvements to already existing features.

Maybe they really are struggling with the codebase.

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thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
27405 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:13 pm

docbot wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:07 pm
I get the "don't change a winning horse" argument about Ableton Live. But it seems most people actually don't want a big change to Live, but rather quit small usability improvements to already existing features.
Agreed :) I don't understand why anyone would buy a DAW then demand features it doesn't have.

chk071
KVRAF
24033 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:16 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:13 pm
docbot wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:07 pm
I get the "don't change a winning horse" argument about Ableton Live. But it seems most people actually don't want a big change to Live, but rather quit small usability improvements to already existing features.
Agreed :) I don't understand why anyone would buy a DAW then demand features it doesn't have.
It happens all the time here...
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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Rivanni
KVRist
325 posts since 4 Feb, 2017

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:19 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:13 pm
docbot wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:07 pm
I get the "don't change a winning horse" argument about Ableton Live. But it seems most people actually don't want a big change to Live, but rather quit small usability improvements to already existing features.
Agreed :) I don't understand why anyone would buy a DAW then demand features it doesn't have.
Not straight after you bought it, but after a few
years of use it's normal to ask for features you see in other DAWs and also like to see in the one you're using.

machinesworking
KVRAF
2324 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:35 pm

Rivanni wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:19 pm
thecontrolcentre wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:13 pm
docbot wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:07 pm
I get the "don't change a winning horse" argument about Ableton Live. But it seems most people actually don't want a big change to Live, but rather quit small usability improvements to already existing features.
Agreed :) I don't understand why anyone would buy a DAW then demand features it doesn't have.
Not straight after you bought it, but after a few
years of use it's normal to ask for features you see in other DAWs and also like to see in the one you're using.
Or it could be that you've owned it forever, watched it get xyz features and have a list of your own that you wish it did?

I bought it specifically for Session View, and live performance, I wished it kept in that direction but it hasn't been the main focus for quite some time. Not trying to ruffle feathers here, but it's obvious their main focus is IT people wanting to relax and make a beat after work. Live performance focused more on a DJ style experience rather than live performance in a broader term of that.

Specifically, Live has touted it's abilities live, and to this day there are glaring holes there. It's no argument the least efficient DAW CPU cycle wise and Racks do not offer any way to rotate through software instruments you might want to perform with, they will all be actively consuming CPU. Sets are still the only way to radically change CC settings or software instruments without an elaborate scene setup that turns on and off various things to gain some CPU back, but that has a limitation of being a simple on and off switch, so songs can only be played in a single direction in a Set. Performance of course is still possible with Live, that's not what I'm saying, but it's main focus is gone, because I suppose for most people it's no big deal.

I didn't buy Bitwig until recently and IMO so far it's cool, they addressed the multiple instrument switching issue, but again performance isn't it's main audience I'm guessing.

I've messed with and owned most of the DAWs out there, and my feeling is they all sort of lose focus, if one was geared specifically towards performance it would have Chunks from DP10, Racks from Bitwig (and CPU compared to Live), Max4Live and Session View from Live, Alchemy from Logic, etc. etc.

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Dirtgrain
KVRian
807 posts since 12 Jan, 2019

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:02 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:13 pm
Agreed :) I don't understand why anyone would buy a DAW then demand features it doesn't have.
What DAW has everything one could desire? Not one to rule them all so far. Demand is a bit of a mischaracterization, generally speaking. There are things some point out as simple implementations, perhaps not knowing the complexity potentially involved. But I don't see anyone "demanding" anything.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson

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Dirtgrain
KVRian
807 posts since 12 Jan, 2019

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:28 pm

WTF. It seems the only way to enable using the computer keyboard in Bitwig to play notes is that one has to use the Caps Lock key. I have disabled my Caps Lock key because it is evil. Does this make Bitwig evil? Grrrrr.

Edit: Was able to make custom shortcut for it, but still, evil?
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson

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JoeCat
KVRian
1441 posts since 19 May, 2011 from North Carolina

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:37 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:35 pm
...Racks do not offer any way to rotate through software instruments you might want to perform with...
Some of the limitations with Racks are the most frustrating for those of us using Live as a studio DAW (though I have used it for live sets also). I like to Rack up all my instruments, even just for preset creation; the ability to assign macros - even as helpful reminders as what parameter tweaks create interesting sound variations - is pretty invaluable. But there's no good way to scroll through Racks even with Push. I get the load time limitations for different instruments, but for Racks of the same instrument, smarts to prevent unloading/loading would be helpful.

In any case - you can't have everything; I suspect I'll find thing about Bitwig annoying if I decide to go that route.

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thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
27405 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:18 pm

Dirtgrain wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:02 pm
thecontrolcentre wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:13 pm
Agreed :) I don't understand why anyone would buy a DAW then demand features it doesn't have.
What DAW has everything one could desire? Not one to rule them all so far. Demand is a bit of a mischaracterization, generally speaking. There are things some point out as simple implementations, perhaps not knowing the complexity potentially involved. But I don't see anyone "demanding" anything.
I've been with Live exclusively since version 6. I used Acid Pro before that. I bought Live soon as it got vst support. I've grown with the program, and after 15 years I find it quick & intuitive. I write, record, mix and perform with Live. I've never felt the need to use a different DAW and I'm almost always happy when the (rare) major updates come along and the extras they provide. Live feels like a mature, "finished" product to me, but I'm sure they'll throw us some more improvements during the current cycle. No hurry tho' ;)

machinesworking
KVRAF
2324 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:20 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:18 pm
Dirtgrain wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:02 pm
thecontrolcentre wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:13 pm
Agreed :) I don't understand why anyone would buy a DAW then demand features it doesn't have.
What DAW has everything one could desire? Not one to rule them all so far. Demand is a bit of a mischaracterization, generally speaking. There are things some point out as simple implementations, perhaps not knowing the complexity potentially involved. But I don't see anyone "demanding" anything.
I've been with Live exclusively since version 6. I used Acid Pro before that. I bought Live soon as it got vst support. I've grown with the program, and after 15 years I find it quick & intuitive. I write, record, mix and perform with Live. I've never felt the need to use a different DAW and I'm almost always happy when the (rare) major updates come along and the extras they provide. Live feels like a mature, "finished" product to me, but I'm sure they'll throw us some more improvements during the current cycle. No hurry tho' ;)
It got VSTi support in version 4.
Yes, it's much much better than Acid Pro.

I think that's where the difference lies, I've used Logic or DP along with Live since version 3, I've got a lot to compare it to. I still think it's a fantastic DAW, but where the heck is MPE support? :dog:

Oh, and the video support in Max4Live is amazing, changing videos with Session clips etc. Cool stuff.

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thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
27405 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:26 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:20 pm
Oh, and the video support in Max4Live is amazing, changing videos with Session clips etc. Cool stuff.
I'd missed that. Was that new in v10? Cool.

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antic604
KVRAF
5047 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:36 pm

Dirtgrain wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:28 pm
WTF. It seems the only way to enable using the computer keyboard in Bitwig to play notes is that one has to use the Caps Lock key. I have disabled my Caps Lock key because it is evil. Does this make Bitwig evil? Grrrrr.

Edit: Was able to make custom shortcut for it, but still, evil?
You gotta be kidding?! How is Caps Lock "evil"? :scared: :roll:
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
27405 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 pm

:hihi:

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Rivanni
KVRist
325 posts since 4 Feb, 2017

Re: Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

Post Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:08 pm

Dirtgrain wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:28 pm
WTF. It seems the only way to enable using the computer keyboard in Bitwig to play notes is that one has to use the Caps Lock key. I have disabled my Caps Lock key because it is evil. Does this make Bitwig evil? Grrrrr.

Edit: Was able to make custom shortcut for it, but still, evil?
It's still a bit evil because with a custom shortcut you can only play when a VST plugin has the focus. As soon as you click elsewhere the keyboard doesn't work anymore.
You don't have this problem when you use Caps Lock.

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