Why is Ableton so slow to release updates?

[revvy]

nm

[Serhii Kot]

I am waiting forever for actual useful updates for me. I don't understand how DAW in 2020 couldn't do "Bounce in place" or "bounce to a new track". Also "apply track name to clips" would be nice to have.

PS I am fluent user of Logic, Reaper, Studio One, Bitwig and Ableton. I think Bitwig today is far more capable than Ableton Live (in case of music creating in the box at least), but unfortunately, I don't like arranger GUI. Devices are nice btw.

[dreamstate42]

Again, good point. For sure there are people - not pointing fingers - that will engage in a list wars of some sort, i.e. which DAW has the most features, even if they themselves use 10% of them.

I was thinking along those lines not too long ago, for example I went out and bought Cubase 10.5 Pro being sure that because it has the most features, it's likely the best DAW for me. Well, it definitely isn't because huge part of my workflow revolves around complex device chains and elaborate, usually random modulation. I can't do those things in Cubase (or they're very, very hard). If the things Cubase is great at - e.g. editing midi & audio, comping, etc. - are 5-10% of what I do, why would I want to get stuck with it, instead of choosing an environment that's fast, fun and inspiring when doing things I spend 80% of my time with? That's why I'm leaning towards Live, Bitwig, Reason or even Studio One (as a compromise between "old" linear workflows and more creative DAWs).

And once you've identified the features that are important for your workflow, you should look at how they're implemented. For Bitwig vs. Live you could say that they overlap in 75-80% and probably even more - like 90-95% - for the features that I care for, but it's the execution that's different. Live tends to get sophisticated and more flexible, whereas Bitwig focuses on say 80% of potential functionality but tries to make it easier, more intuitive to use. Good examples are modulation system, where Live doesn't impose the same restrictions (you can attach the LFO on track #1 to anything on track #2 with no fuss), but Bitwig - while more restrictive - beats it in how fast, easy and creative you can get stacking simple, pre-defined components. Similarly with M4L vs. Grid, where the former is incredibly deep and powerful, but the barrier to entry is way higher than in less sophisticated Grid. So it's only natural some people will go one way, while others will go the other - even though on the surface both cover the same functionality.

Absolutely agree. I think it just takes time to really figure out what it is you "actually do with your DAW". When I first tried Cubase, I found the MIDI options and the Mix Console amazing, just to realise that I don't really use all of it that often. Same with many other DAWs. I think there are two people in my head, the "software developer" (by trade), and the "creative person" (that loves making music). Sometimes the dev takes over and is gleefully looking at features and what could possible be done with it, just for the creative guy to wake up, be annoyed with how many steps something takes, and insisting on using another DAW. Reaper is an example for this for myself. I'm constantly amazed at how much Reaper can do, and the level of customisability. I still rarely use it outside of mixing, simply because I often times don't feel the drive to sit down and customise it to my needs.

I realised that DAWs with a "rack" concept are more to my liking, and the "race" between Live or Bitwig for my own use is a very close one. Right now, the things that annoy me about Live are still a little less annoying than the things that annoy me about Bitwig, if that makes sense. But I'm still regularly checking for new Bitwig betas (as long as my plan is still active)

[whyterabbyt]

If the same money is spent, Ableton is a joke compared to Bitwig... perhaps not unimportant for some trying to make a decision between these 2...

Over what time period? Ableton doesnt cost £160 a year on top of the purchase price.

[machinesworking]

If the same money is spent, Ableton is a joke compared to Bitwig... perhaps not unimportant for some trying to make a decision between these 2...

Over what time period? Ableton doesnt cost £160 a year on top of the purchase price.

Depends on how you slice it. If you demand that Bitwig be updated every year, then Bitwig will be more expensive, but if you only update when you get features you want or need then not really.
Live Suite on a single update is very expensive to upgrade $300, so I've already adopted the 'wait until feature I need' policy with it where I wait until xmas time when they offer a 30% off deal.

With that in mind if you choose stability and cost over the latest features neither are expensive. If you need the lates greatest not so much.

[Reefius]

It looks like all Bitwig fanboys have one thing in common: they're terrible at math

[antic604]

If the same money is spent, Ableton is a joke compared to Bitwig... perhaps not unimportant for some trying to make a decision between these 2...

Over what time period? Ableton doesnt cost £160 a year on top of the purchase price.

Guys, let's not go there again... We don't know how often Live will have paid updates going forward. We don't know whether Bitwig's EUR169/year will be continued as it's a very contentious point and they still sort of keep big updates to 'round' version numbers. We don't know if Bitwig's users - on average - actually renew it every year, or is it for example 18 months or whatever. We might not even agree if choosing a DAW based on a price is a valid criteria

[whyterabbyt]

If the same money is spent, Ableton is a joke compared to Bitwig... perhaps not unimportant for some trying to make a decision between these 2...

Over what time period? Ableton doesnt cost £160 a year on top of the purchase price.

Guys, let's not go there again...

Then lets not have the idiots throw in 'the same money spent' as a metric of anything meaningful when there are two completely different payment models going on, two completely different version-upgrade cycles going on, etc.

[machinesworking]

This is false assumption to me anyway. workflow is great, important for sure, but features are the deciding factor.

(...)

Are the features you need or regularly use part of your workflow, to an extend? In a sense, that if a DAW doesn't have a particular feature, but some kind of workaround, you would chose the one with that feature because it better supports your workflow?

But maybe that's just me, I really was just curious to know, no "wrong answers" really

I'm a bit different I admit, but I've always used an "old school" linear sequencer alongside Live. If I get annoyed at Lives lack of decent MIDI editing I just jump over to DP10, if I get annoyed at DP10's linear left brain approach I fire up Live.

Neither do MPE natively so I've looked for the last couple years at other DAWs, specifically Reaper, Bitwig and Logic. I don't think DAWs are that hard to learn. It's like learning a language, you're always going to feel the most comfortable in your first language, but it's not impossible to get good at more than one.

I think what drives me is this feeling that waiting around for a feature that has a workaround that kills your fun in a DAW is a waste of time. I might end up in Bitwig, but honestly I never see it getting Articulation maps, and messing around with it in Logic is a real mind blower, it's definitely something I want to use.

Comping and Chunks in DP are fantastic, in fact for me DP10 might end up being the one, but it's still far away from Live or Bitwig in terms of Clips and Push 2, Alunchpad, APC 40 etc. haptic response feedback for it's Clips window, it's got none of that. Plus Bitwig especially has a fantastic controller mapping system, global and for the specific song. That gives those DAWs something pretty special with a good controller like the Novation MKIII or Push 2.

Basically I'm currently mostly using Bitwig, I'm not selling Live or DP10 though. The advantages of those DAWs are pretty strong, being able to do a live show in Live with video that's responding directly to Session clip firing is pretty cool stuff, and Chunks in DP10 in many many ways is for me a better way to deal with live sets in general.

The big disadvantage to this approach is you start to like them all. Reaper I didn't mention, but it's pretty dammed cool too. Big learning curve and customizing curve, but it's amazing as well.

[antic604]

Then lets not have the idiots throw in 'the same money spent' as a metric of anything meaningful when there are two completely different payment models going on, two completely different version-upgrade cycles going on, etc.

That's why I said "guys"

It's impossible to tell how much the cost matters to each individual person - some buy DAWs as business investment and compare that to how much they earn using it; for others it falls under the "hobby" cathegory where it's much less important. Then it's even more difficult to estimate how much valuable a specific feature is to a person - for instance, I'd be willing to pay EUR100 to get alias clips alone, but I don't care at all for comping. But it might be completely opposite for someone else! Such a discussion leads nowhere.

[whyterabbyt]

Then lets not have the idiots throw in 'the same money spent' as a metric of anything meaningful when there are two completely different payment models going on, two completely different version-upgrade cycles going on, etc.

That's why I said "guys"

It's impossible to tell how much the cost matters to each individual person - some buy DAWs as business investment and compare that to how much they earn using it; for others it falls under the "hobby" cathegory where it's much less important. Then it's even more difficult to estimate how much valuable a specific feature is to a person - for instance, I'd be willing to pay EUR100 to get alias clips alone, but I don't care at all for comping. But it might be completely opposite for someone else! Such a discussion leads nowhere.

Aye.

[antic604]

The big disadvantage to this approach is you start to like them all. Reaper I didn't mention, but it's pretty dammed cool too. Big learning curve and customizing curve, but it's amazing as well.

The question is - is it worth it? Are the benefits of switching to Logic or DP10 (or whatever) for a specific feature that's implemented brilliantly there offset the time you need to "waste" transferring stuff from one DAW to the other, adjusting to different shortcuts, keeping the software up to date, etc.? And even more importantly, does it come across in the music, i.e. is it better for it? For example, if I primariliy worked in Live and would briefly switch to Bitwig for its modulation, would my music really sound better? Would I finish it sooner? I'm not sure.

My motto currently is: use the DAW that does best the things you do the most of and that pisses you the least for everything else.

Also, using 3 DAWs I try to stick to 1 project = 1 DAW rule, which means:
- Bitwig projects will be more focused on sound design & modulation, i.e. more "trippy"
- Reason projects will be more generative/random but simpler, because of abundance of great sequencers there and propensity for projects getting unwieldy once they get bigger,
- Studio One project will be more focused on harmony & melody rather than sound design, because of great MIDI tools, incl. chord track

[andypryce]

It is not always features. I have both and BWS has most of what I miss from Live. But after my initial excitement about BWS and even finishing a few songs with it, I am back to working with Live. Because despite it's shortcomings I feel more comfortable and productive with Live. Right now all major DAWs are great. It's more about what clicks with you.

[antic604]

It is not always features. I have both and BWS has most of what I miss from Live. But after my initial excitement about BWS and even finishing a few songs with it, I am back to working with Live. Because despite it's shortcomings I feel more comfortable and productive with Live. Right now all major DAWs are great. It's more about what clicks with you.

It would be great if you quoted the post you're commenting, because I believe most here agree with you

[thecontrolcentre]

Update: April 8, 2020

We’ve reduced the price on all editions of Live by 30%. This offer includes new licenses as well as upgrades. Log in to see your available upgrades.
In collaboration with Max for Cats and Sonic Bloom, we’ve made the Stray Cats Collection, a free Pack of Max for Live devices. (Note: this Pack requires Max for Live, which is included in Live Suite or available for purchase for Live Standard.)
Our book, Making Music: 74 Creative Strategies for Electronic Music Producers, is temporarily free to download in .pdf, .mobi, and .epub format.
With Loop delayed until 2021, we’ll bring a bit of that community to you at home. We’re planning three days of curated live streams and daily music-making challenges, as well as a place to discuss the process of making music and share results. Save the dates: April 24-26. More info is coming soon.