Cubase SX3 vs. Sonar 4

[headquest]

I wouldn't care if they removed every plug/synth from the package.

Bet you would

On your comments of target audience. There are those of us who are not happy that Cubase is moving towards the home studio/looper community.

Music is for everyone

This is another case where I wish they would quit all the side crap and get back to MIDI and Audio as a pro-studio tool. Trying to be all things to all people is cutting into the products efficiency.

THat's a fair point though. I'm all for using specialist products tailor made for getting a specific job done, rather than "Jack-of-all-trades"

#5: There were a lot of inaccuracies and half-truths in those articles. The reviews seemed to be as half-assed as a Cubase initial release.

[headquest]

Bundled software should NOT be the reason you buy a sequencer. I wouldn't care if they removed every plug/synth from the package. The only plug I can say that I would use regularly that comes with an existing package is the Logic sampler..

that's in your opinion, I guess..

since the big sequencers are becoming so much alike, I think the bundled software in many cases is the deciding factor

I agree. The Sonitus and Lexicon effects in Sonar are actually one of its biggest draws for me (bought seperately, the Sonitus effects cost more than half of Sonar's asking price, so that's good value for money.)

I can't think of anything that is a similar draw in Cubase SX3 ... either the effects are as lacklustre as the reviewers say, or Steinberg are being poor at advertising them...

Speaking of which, I'm not clear about this - is VSampler still bundled with Sonar 4, or was it only in v.3?

[SJ_Digriz]

I wouldn't care if they removed every plug/synth from the package.

Bet you would

hehe, I know I wouldn't because I have disabled all the damned things so they don't clutter my VST lists. Here are the ones left in

MidiGate
MultiBand Compressor
VSTDynamics(strictly for the gate)
StepFilter

The rest are disabled.

Music is for everyone

Hey, I have no problem with the community. I just want my tool back. Let Tracktion, Live, Acid and the rest be your holy grail. Leave my Cubase alone hehehee.

[Sascha Franck]

Err, sorry, SJ, but I can't exactly second you regarding quality of the build-in plugins coming with Logic. Yes, you *may* not need them - but then let me ask: WHICH plugins do you personally need then?
Even more to the contrary, IMO the sampler is something more on the weak side of Logic's plugins.

What you're getting apart from it is a package that even suits some professional needs. ES2 is one of the best sounding VAs around, Space Designer is just brilliant, EVD6 has no counterpart in the third party VST world at all, the latest Channel EQ is very good, you further get a pretty much usable e-piano, the EVB3 kicks B4s ass freaking big time, EVOC being one of the most useful vocoder-alike plugins around, etc etc... seriously, while there might be some people not exactly needing all those, I still think there's almost one (or two, or three) for everyone.

I seriously wouldn't mind if SX came with a reasonable package of plugins, but instead all you can find is stuff that could easily be replaced by a bunch of freebies.
At least the most basic plugins that everybody seems to use (EQ, compression, reverb, delays and a variety of modulation effects) IMO could very well be covered by a sequencer, at least offering reasonable quality.
IMO Steinberg missed out on that - which is sorta bad because I could very well imagine this being a nice selling argument.

[kuniklo]

I don't want to pay for stuff I won't use. When I buy a sequencer, I want a sequencer.

I figure I can always replace the boxed synths and plugins with better third party stuff if I feel the need. If the basic workflow doesn't suit me there's not much I can do about it.

[kuniklo]

I seriously wouldn't mind if SX came with a reasonable package of plugins, but instead all you can find is stuff that could easily be replaced by a bunch of freebies.
At least the most basic plugins that everybody seems to use (EQ, compression, reverb, delays and a variety of modulation effects) IMO could very well be covered by a sequencer, at least offering reasonable quality.
IMO Steinberg missed out on that - which is sorta bad because I could very well imagine this being a nice selling argument.

Logic's built-in plugins weren't really a big deciding factor for me initially but I've since realized that there are some real advantages in having a complete set of decent quality plugins. This makes some interesting things possible. For instance, Logic's new channel strip settings that bundle a synth or sampler with a preset and a full channel of effects/dynamic plugins. Logic 7 comes with a huge, well categorized library of these and is really the only host that could make this work. Apple loops are another good example. Many of the Apple loops shipped by Apple are actually midi files + plugin settings. This only works because Apple knows you've got all the plugins needed to use the loop.

So basically two of the coolest new features in Logic 7 couldn't have happened in any other host.

[SJ_Digriz]

Err, sorry, SJ, but I can't exactly second you regarding quality of the build-in plugins coming with Logic. Yes, you *may* not need them - but then let me ask: WHICH plugins do you personally need then?........

Ok, let me rephrase this a little. I'll try to keep it short but will probably fail.

The Logic plugs are superior to what comes with cubase. I've never thought any different. I would argue the B4 comparison but don't worry about it. What I am saying is I don't really think that these plugs make or break Logic as a sequencer though. I wouldn't buy Logic to get the clavinet plug. It wouldn't even be in my equation when making the purchase. If Cubase had the EVP or the EVD or both, I would surely not disable them though.

The ONE area I believe that should be addressed as far as effects go is that Cubase channel strip EQ sucks monkey nuts. This is such a basic part of any audio channel I can't figure out why they don't address it. It's like an artifact creation FX instead of a filter.

The problem with compressors is there are a thousand kinds that do a thousand things. I might see some point in putting some mastering plugs like WaveLab does. But other than that they will only please 1/10th of the audience with any one plug and the other 9/10th will scream how stupid it is. The other thing that bugs me is people bitch about plain interfaces. There is nothing wrong with a simple interface for an FX that has 2 knobs. Get over it. The only thing that matters is the sound that comes out the other side.

Lastly, any other host is going to lose to Logic if you base your purchase on plugins. So clearly that can't be the deciding factor

[SJ_Digriz]

We kind of moved off topic again. I have not and will not slam any host. To put this back on Sonar vs Cubase footing, I'll summarize my previous few posts like this.

If you buy Sonar because you want the reverb plug, you are IMO making a huge mistake. There are dozens of legitimate work flow issues to go one way or the other.

[headquest]

We kind of moved off topic again. I have not and will not slam any host. To put this back on Sonar vs Cubase footing, I'll summarize my previous few posts like this.

If you buy Sonar because you want the reverb plug, you are IMO making a huge mistake. There are dozens of legitimate work flow issues to go one way or the other.

I would agree with you there...

But if you happen to want the plug ins (e.g. the Sonitus fx: Suite, which I have been considering buying stand-alone anyway ) AND like the workflow of the sequencer, then you end up with a better deal than if you spend a lot on a sequencer that doesn't come with good plugs.

[SJ_Digriz]

In all the other things I forgot to mention the major reason I don't use Sonar. Remember this is SX-2 vs Sonar3 now, I don't have 4 to test against.

When mixing audio tracks the results from Sonar would get "muddy" or uhm "fuzzy" if I had more than 10 or 12 tracks. I am able to do 35ish to 45ish audio tracks in SX before this starts to happen.

I have a powerful PC, FX-53, but an average audio card, Delta 1010. But, this seemed to be the case on my older 2100+ system as well. It is possible this is a hardware/configuration issue. But it seemed like an audio engine issue when I was actually doing the tests. YMMV

[spaceman]

In all the other things I forgot to mention the major reason I don't use Sonar. Remember this is SX-2 vs Sonar3 now, I don't have 4 to test against.

When mixing audio tracks the results from Sonar would get "muddy" or uhm "fuzzy" if I had more than 10 or 12 tracks. I am able to do 35ish to 45ish audio tracks in SX before this starts to happen.

I have a powerful PC, FX-53, but an average audio card, Delta 1010. But, this seemed to be the case on my older 2100+ system as well. It is possible this is a hardware/configuration issue. But it seemed like an audio engine issue when I was actually doing the tests. YMMV

hmm.. are you sure about that? it's not the audio itself that works together dodgy? or is it something you hear in every project?

I've never had that myself

[SJ_Digriz]

What I would do is take 5 tracks at a time and make a wave of each, then import them and mix them to a single wave. Then if the results were ok, I would add 5 more tracks to each. The summing got dodgy in Sonar way before Cubase, approx 1/3rd the number of tracks.

I did this because I was getting some weird mixes that I couldn't figure out while messing with Sonar. So I came up with that test to see what was going on.

I will totally say that it could be a user error/configuration situation. I am NOT a Sonar expert by any stretch. I know that Cubase can give crappy results because of seemingly unrelated settings. So, the same may be true. I could have been doing something stupid.

[Todd2]

SX3 is now great for Audio ..I don't use the midi as much but it works fine and friends say it is great...Cubase SX is now pushing the PC more and is preparing for the time of 64 bit technology....if you have a strong PC/Mac ..then your laughing

I think Logic is hyped and charge way to much, Logic and Sonar's Audio engines are not as good as SX, and not sure about Sonar but Logic is still not with it with PDC..although that new amp sim in Logic7 kicks major ass

Once Cubase SX3 squishes its bugs with a couple builds it really will be killer .... although to be honest they are all pretty hot nowadays...cant really go wrong

when you think some of the most well known records were recorded on a 4 track!!!

[headquest]

SX3 is now great for Audio ..I don't use the midi as much but it works fine and friends say it is great...Cubase SX is now pushing the PC more and is preparing for the time of 64 bit technology....if you have a strong PC/Mac ..then your laughing

How about those of us who are laptop based?

I think Logic is hyped and charge way to much, Logic and Sonar's Audio engines are not as good as SX

WHat od you mean exactly when you say their audio engines are not as good? Can you give technical information to explain your claim?

and not sure about Sonar but Logic is still not with it with PDC..

Yes, SOnar does have full PDC and has done for several years before Cubase. Also to put this in context, $80 Tracktion has full PDC and had it before Cubase! And you're right that Logic STILL doesn;t have it

Once Cubase SX3 squishes its bugs with a couple builds it really will be killer ....

erm...yes

[Todd2]

See, SJ Digriz, all your screenshots won't prove anything for me (btw, I know about those options).
All they prove is that SX is taking up significantly more screen space. In my posted screenshot, I DO have a channel strip available, yet tracklist, part information and channel strip don't take up around the same amount of space as your "non-inspector" version. In addition (and that's QUITE another big thing!), over the channel strip you can see the sequence information box, allowing you to actually SEE the quantization settings of each selected MIDI part. This simply isn't possible at all in SX, unless you're using a dedicated MIDI plugin for it, which IMO is complete nonsense for a basic thing such as quantizing. Whenever you're using the "plain" quantizing, there's no way to know what was quantized how, apart from looking at your note data in some editor.
Just think about how cool THIS feature alone is. No need to fool around with something like iterative quantizing, let alone having to insert a MIDI plugin - which, btw, will only work for a complete track, from what I know, rather than for a MIDI part.

Further, I only posted my main worekspace screenset.
On #3 I have around the same arrange page with a fully sized key (matrix in Logic) editor on the secondary monitor - still without having to resize the program windows to fit two monitors (which would take up WAY more space due to the added menu bars and the likes, which would even be impossible on two differently sized monitors). That's simply impossible in Cubase because editors won't open as float windows.

Last but not least, I HATE it that you just can't arrange your mixer channels freely. That's just as lame as it could get and there's no reason for it either.
In Logic I can have it both ways, there's a track mixer, actually exactly displaying what's going on in your arrange and there's your "environemt mixer", allowing for totally free configuration.

However, we could argue until the cows come home, meanwhile I'm pretty much familiar about what you can do in terms of screen efficieny in SX, and I'd still say it's almost proveable that it's wasting too much space, at least when being compared to Logic.
SX 3 (which I am about to finally pickup today it seems) might have made a few steps into the right direction, edit in place being one of them, but I still doubt it'll be even halfway as efficient as Logic. But we'll see, I actually am somewhat excited to try out the new Cubase features. Unfortunately, from the demo videos it still looks as if a LOT of button clicking and mousing will be required.

reading here shows how people have different views which is fare enough...I used to use Logic and found Cubase was much more "Logical" and less mouse clicks this end...I liked Logic for its plugins and syths but that's about it.....now I have a UAD-1 and a load of cool 3rd party plugs I would not dream of going back to Logic....but that's just my view... I think SX3 stands up to Pro Tools very well and will not need an app like Logic to take care of the Midi... just my view