KVR Audio

dlt123 · Post by **dlt123** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:15 am

I currently own Studio One V2, with V5 on the seemingly near future, but I am thinking of changing DAWs. I am looking at Bitwig and Live 10.

I am primarily interested in MIDI capabilities and not so much Audio work. Which DAW is better, or more comprehensive for MIDI work in the PC environment?

I really haven't seen much talk about which DAW is more suited to MIDI work per se.

Note: Many years ago, I tried using Cubase but hated it. It was buggy then and left a really bad taste in my mouth, so I have stayed clear over the years. Also, I hate dongles.

Also, I know rumor has it that S1 V5 will be more MIDI centric, but I might switch before it's release.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Thanks

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:28 am

dlt123 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:15 amI currently own Studio One V2, with V5 on the seemingly near future, but I am thinking of changing DAWs. I am looking at Bitwig and Live 10.

Let me stop you right there. S1 is better at MIDI than Bitwig & Live together. And Cubase beats all three combined, probably

But perhaps you need to explain what you mean by "working with MIDI", because my projects are 95% MIDI as well, yet Bitwig (or Live) are perfectly capable for me, no matter their limitations. I mean it's a totally different thing if you're doing electronic music, where it's more about the sounds, textures and their flow vs. orchestral pieces, where melody, harmony development and expression are key. For the latter S1 has many macro editors, harmonic editing (chord track), MIDI comping, etc.; the former is where Live and in particular Bitwig shine, because often you can do awesome sounding stuff with single note or chord.

One advantage Bitwig has above S1 (or Live, for that matter) is very comprehensive support for MPE, but you never mentioned it as being important either.

So, tell us more

dlt123 · Post by **dlt123** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:44 am

I'm more interested in Electronic Music than orchestral. I.E. Ambient, Psytrance, etc... You pretty much nailed what I am looking for when you mentioned sounds, textures, and their flow v.s. orchestral pieces.

I like S1, but I don't like that it's not too easy to route MIDI output to another track without going through contortions, which you showed me on another thread you addressed for me. There are a few other nitpicks I have with my version of S1, which probably have been worked out in later versions. I'm just wondering if I should try another DAW.

I'm not in a hurry to jump ship, just wondering what others find easier for MIDI work.

Also, I am not so interested in the Grid idea of Bitwig, I don't plan on creating other synths. I have Falcon that addresses my creative side.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:52 am

dlt123 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:44 am I'm more interested in Electronic Music than orchestral. I.E. Ambient, Psytrance, etc... You pretty much nailed what I am looking for when you mentioned sounds, textures, and their flow v.s. orchestral pieces.

Well, then there's no harm in trying Live and Bitwig! The former currently has a 90 days full-featured demo of Suite, the latter has 30 days and you can't save projects (although there are ways around that). When you decide, you can find both at 2nd hand market significantly cheaper, i.e. Live 10 Suite at $300-350, Bitwig probably $200-250.

I'm also huge fan or Reason, but I'm aware it's not for everyone

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:10 am

On Windows IMO it's going to be Cubase, DP10, and Reaper and Studio One for MIDI work, more or less in that order.

I'm getting the impression you're not talking about MIDI editing per say though, meaning you're not talking about changing the third quarter note in a section of MIDI from C1 to C#1 and if the DAW has features that can do that. More like is it capable of modulating parameters on the fly, how intuitive it is etc.

So since you don't like dongles which is totally understandable it's going to be between DP10, Reaper, Live and Bitwig.

DP10 and Reaper are more old school, dense products with probably features and working methods you won't really jibe with. I could be wrong, but that's my impression.

Live is good at MIDI, but somewhat simple, although there are crazy Max 4 Live patches for MIDI, and the Max LFO is pretty much necessary IMO.So you're looking at Suite like Antic604 mentioned.

Bitwig is slightly better at MIDI: MPE is native, (which Falcon supports), it actually has a shortcut for full screen MIDI editing, it has a native modulation system without the big price. It's not super complex MIDI wise either. If you want that and can put up with some set up issues that people have reported on Windows I'm a big fan of DP10. I own 5+ DAWs at the moment, (was pondering a switch for better MPE support), and I still go back to DP10 all the time.

Anyway, Live, Bitwig and DP10 all have pretty full featured demos so.. My guess is Bitwig is going to be the best fit though, it's definitely geared towards electronic music.

Distorted Horizon · Post by **Distorted Horizon** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:27 am

Flstudio has nice tricks for midi. With Reaper you can do all the same things, but setting it up...

trusampler · Post by **trusampler** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:35 am

When you say midi, are you speaking in terms of hardware instruments or just soft Synths?
If for just vsts, then any of these daws are fine, but once you start dealing with external midi instruments, this is where the older daws simply destroy the newer daws. Cubase, Logic, and even Pro Tools were built with midi in mind for hardware, so it really depends on what you want to do with midi.

ramseysounds · Post by **ramseysounds** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:05 am

cubase

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:13 am

Definitely demo the DAW's. There's nothing worse than shelling out hundreds of € to find out that the workflow won't suit you. Especially with DAW's.

dlt123 · Post by **dlt123** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:32 am

machinesworking wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:10 am ...

Anyway, Live, Bitwig and DP10 all have pretty full featured demos so.. My guess is Bitwig is going to be the best fit though, it's definitely geared towards electronic music.

Well, I guess I am going to have to rethink Bitwig. I watched a video on it and it looks like it reworked some of DP10 clip ideas and expanded the concept. I like what I saw so far with Bitwig.

Also, I am just using VST and not hardware synths. DP10 looks good, but I will have to dig deeper into Bitwig for awhile.

dlt123 · Post by **dlt123** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:41 pm

I have to ask, and this is not a criticism about Bitwig... How is the sound engine in Bitwig? To me, what I've heard, some of the audio demos coming out of Bitwig sounded a little distorted and not as clean as S1. The sound engine in S1 is excellent. Am I just imagining this or is the sound engine of Bitwig a little dirtier? Not bad, just not a clean as S1.

Not trying to re-open the debate about engine sounds, I just feel some engines sound better than others.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:18 pm

dlt123 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:41 pm I have to ask, and this is not a criticism about Bitwig... How is the sound engine in Bitwig? To me, what I've heard, some of the audio demos coming out of Bitwig sounded a little distorted and not as clean as S1. The sound engine in S1 is excellent. Am I just imagining this or is the sound engine of Bitwig a little dirtier? Not bad, just not a clean as S1.

Not trying to re-open the debate about engine sounds, I just feel some engines sound better than others.

I think it's just the type of music Devs like - it's indeed pretty specific, kinda weird and lo-fi in some hipster way. Also, but this should be obvious, native instruments and FX have their own sound, which is a given for many DAWs.

To my ears there's really no difference. I once made a short 'songs' using exactly the same patterns, VSTs and presets in Bitwig, Reason and S1 and posted them in few places polling people which one sounds better (or which one is Reason, because there's this myth about 'Reason sound') and I'd say all 3 got in general the same number of votes, i.e. for all intents and purposes they're indistinguishable.

Distorted Horizon · Post by **Distorted Horizon** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:32 pm

antic604 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:18 pm there's this myth about 'Reason sound'

It's not a myth. It's from an era when Reason didn't support REs or vsts. So the tracks done in Reason, using Reason synths and effects, were recognizable.

harryupbabble · Post by **harryupbabble** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:01 pm

i have reaper 6 and cubase le 5.

of those two daws, i am finding that reaper 6 is best suited for my midi work needs.

cubase le 5 will not even allow me to drag and drop more than one midi clip onto a track. i'm not sure if cubase 10 can do that now.

i might download a trial version of cubase 10 to see if it so much better than cubase le 5 but i expect a lot of demands/hassles/insults from the installer... like telling me "your computer is too old and puny" or something like that.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:07 pm

Distorted Horizon wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:32 pm
antic604 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:18 pm there's this myth about 'Reason sound'
It's not a myth. It's from an era when Reason didn't support REs or vsts. So the tracks done in Reason, using Reason synths and effects, were recognizable.

That's what I'm addressing in 1st paragraph of that post. But the myth persist, even when we have dozens of awesome REs not to mention VSTs.

Which DAW is more suited for MIDI work?