Is MSoundFactory by MeldaProduction the sound-designers wet-dream? / Why should I not buy it?

[KenjiDeVries]

Strange topic. Either you like what you see and buy it, or you don't. I can think of some reason to buy in and of many reason not to buy it, but all of them are subjective. If this is just a try to either start bashing or praising, this is wrong.

[pdxindy]

(Come to think, this is quite probably the reason I've so far not gelled with Bitwig as it seems by far the most synth-like DAW out there, and I can't quite get my head around how it seems to me to deprecate 3rd-party synths in favor of doing "it all" just with BW tools. I DO LOVE the idea of the DAW as the main source of modulation! Yes!!)

Well... the question was asked why not... so I answered it. It's fine if you disagree... It's good there are lots of different tools for different users interests...

Bitwig does not deprecate 3rd party synths... lots of the Bitwig tools work well with VST's.

One example is the Selector devices. Take the Instrument Selector... I can make multiple individual chains of devices (including 3rd party synths and FX) and switch between those chains in a variety of ways. For example, I can assign a keyboard range (new to Bitwig 3.2) to switch layers, do round robin, etc. The inactive layers use no system resources. If you have an active layer with a long reverb, when you switch to a new layer, the reverb tail will not get cut off. Works fantastic with any device, native or 3rd party. There are 3 of the Selector devices. Instrument, FX, and Note.

Doing it all in one super synth means one is limited to the tools in that synth. Towards that end the super synths get more complex and doing some of everything. But no super synth is as good in all areas like the specialized synths and FX are and trying to be one loses the beauty of a simple plugin like RePro. No one developer can match the diversity and uniqueness of all the great developers out there making cool stuff.

Using Bitwig as my super synth, I can enjoy the simple immediacy of RePro... or combine it with other synths, FX, modulations, etc. I can put a synth lead on the upper end of the keyboard and a bass from a different synth on the bottom end of the keyboard. Bitwig is more open ended and flexible than any one synth can be.

[David]

(Come to think, this is quite probably the reason I've so far not gelled with Bitwig as it seems by far the most synth-like DAW out there, and I can't quite get my head around how it seems to me to deprecate 3rd-party synths in favor of doing "it all" just with BW tools. I DO LOVE the idea of the DAW as the main source of modulation! Yes!!)

Well... the question was asked why not... so I answered it. It's fine if you disagree... It's good there are lots of different tools for different users interests...

Oh yes, agreed—and it's good when interesting discussions emerge, for sure, and not just a lot of Final Opinions.

Bitwig does not deprecate 3rd party synths... lots of the Bitwig tools work well with VST's.

Yeah, that was unclear, sorry. I meant only that it seems like that to me often as I watch demos. I guess it's because I've already spent so much time programing synths with their own built-in tools (and lean heavily on synths that are really good at that like MSF, Omni, and still feel there's vast uncharted options with these), and haven't yet really tried to program simpler synths using mainly DAW modulations, so I don't yet see how/why to merge the two methods… I'll get over it:) But also I like to switch DAWs and know my synths will still do what I've made them do

One example is the Selector devices. Take the Instrument Selector... I can make multiple individual chains of devices (including 3rd party synths and FX) and switch between those chains in a variety of ways. For example, I can assign a keyboard range (new to Bitwig 3.2) to switch layers, do round robin, etc. The inactive layers use no system resources. If you have an active layer with a long reverb, when you switch to a new layer, the reverb tail will not get cut off. Works fantastic with any device, native or 3rd party. There are 3 of the Selector devices. Instrument, FX, and Note.

Doing it all in one super synth means one is limited to the tools in that synth. Towards that end the super synths get more complex and doing some of everything. But no super synth is as good in all areas like the specialized synths and FX are and trying to be one loses the beauty of a simple plugin like RePro. No one developer can match the diversity and uniqueness of all the great developers out there making cool stuff.

Using Bitwig as my super synth, I can enjoy the simple immediacy of RePro... or combine it with other synths, FX, modulations, etc. I can put a synth lead on the upper end of the keyboard and a bass from a different synth on the bottom end of the keyboard. Bitwig is more open ended and flexible than any one synth can be.

Yes again; those Selector demos have made me seriously consider FINALLY getting out of OSX 10.12 so I can load the 3.2 beta:)
Unify's doing some very similar things, along with lots of other "duh, of course—where's this function been all my life?!" MIDI tools…

Still, not to even mention the many unique Melda processors all inside MSF, there's SO many things I've thought to try and made work in MSF that I can't see getting a DAW to do as easily or even at all, like utility and custom-gui things which have nothing to do with layering or key ranges or MIDI routing, such as having over 2 dozen different sorts of controller types to assign to any gui macro (MP), including some that can put dozens of controls into one quick-draw sort of step-graph, or adding randomize buttons any- and everywhere, or saving 128 different parameter states into a modulatable multi-target knob for morphing or stepping thru… Or throwing in a half-dozen or more little grid-lane mixers for 6 different oscillators each with unique per-voice level modulators with unique hand-drawn transform mappings, inside an enclosing module that puts the whole thing on a single grid lane next to 5 other lanes. Just like your DAW examples, you start to think differently when faced with such options, no? And why even try to say which is better, a DAW that does that or a synth? Both! is the obvious answer, I'd venture:)

[craggvalehouse]

Yes! Melda and Bitwig are a dream combo really - the modulation workflow in Bitwig is just incredible.
I find it really interesting people who treat a DAW as the instrument where to me it has always been just a tape recorder although I have tried to change that recently (with mixed success).

What I find weird though is people like TJ Shredder who slate a developer who makes really innovative and well priced stuff with free for life upgrades.. the oscillators in MSF are not "boring" and it is not a "night and day" comparison, it is also not even a "matter of taste" really.. match the levels as The Grid is so loud by default and modulate away.. add Mwavefolder and I could get close to any The Grid oscillator sound I could make but MSF then has more options still to alter the sound and also has a ton of really weird but top class fx too so you can "drench the sound in reverb" or whatever..

I won't reply again - I just like reading about Melda stuff and what is going on with Bitwig updates and rainbow colours but after a few beers and wine - sorry!

[pdxindy]

Still, not to even mention the many unique Melda processors all inside MSF, there's SO many things I've thought to try and made work in MSF that I can't see getting a DAW to do as easily or even at all, like utility and custom-gui things which have nothing to do with layering or key ranges or MIDI routing, such as having over 2 dozen different sorts of controller types to assign to any gui macro (MP), including some that can put dozens of controls into one quick-draw sort of step-graph, or adding randomize buttons any- and everywhere, or saving 128 different parameter states into a modulatable multi-target knob for morphing or stepping thru… Or throwing in a half-dozen or more little grid-lane mixers for 6 different oscillators each with unique per-voice level modulators with unique hand-drawn transform mappings, inside an enclosing module that puts the whole thing on a single grid lane next to 5 other lanes. Just like your DAW examples, you start to think differently when faced with such options, no? And why even try to say which is better, a DAW that does that or a synth? Both! is the obvious answer, I'd venture:)

I don't find the sound of MSF to be up there with my favorite synths. Not bad, just nothing special. Also, I find the GUI painful... too convoluted and all over the place. It's one of those where if I don't use it for a while I will forget what to do. It also gets in the way too much for simple things. I like simpler synths that are predominantly one window interfaces. That is what I need most of the time. And when I want something more, Bitwig can do basically anything with any plugins and it doesn't get in the way otherwise.

Like I said, good that there are lots of different tools that fit different peoples interests. We can just disagree on what our favorite tools are

[craggvalehouse]

MSF to me is on a level with Microwave XT, Spectralis, V-synth - the digital classics.. ( I know Spectralis has an analog filter but it is really bland) - you must have some very good favourite synths!

[Tj Shredder]

What I find weird though is people like TJ Shredder who slate a developer who makes really innovative and well priced stuff with free for life upgrades.. the oscillators in MSF are not "boring" and it is not a "night and day" comparison, it is also not even a "matter of taste" really.. match the levels as The Grid is so loud by default and modulate away.. add Mwavefolder and I could get close to any The Grid oscillator sound I could make but MSF then has more options still to alter the sound and also has a ton of really weird but top class fx too so you can "drench the sound in reverb" or whatever..

I must say, I revise my judgement about the oscillators of MSF. There had been two OSCs with commercial synths marketed as sound-designers wet dream. MSF and Phase Plant. I just mixed those up for an unknown reason, sorry for that! MSF was much more a workflow/UI problem for me. It was an uninspiring technocratic monster, vs. the Grid would let my ideas flow unhindered. I think that OSC was around the time the Grid was published, and I was 100 times faster in the Grid with even complex ideas than in MSF, and constantly having fun in the Grid and getting creative blocks in MSF. (Both being new for me in the same way...) All potential which MSF probably has, was sort of wasted by the way its UI is programmed... That for sure is a matter of taste...

[David]

… It was an uninspiring technocratic monster, vs. the Grid would let my ideas flow unhindered. I think that OSC was around the time the Grid was published, and I was 100 times faster in the Grid with even complex ideas than in MSF, and constantly having fun in the Grid and getting creative blocks in MSF. (Both being new for me in the same way...) All potential which MSF probably has, was sort of wasted by the way its UI is programmed... That for sure is a matter of taste...

Or maybe experience? I've only so far watched a bunch of Bitwig Grid videos, but I still don't feel any sort of connection with what I've seen in those the way I instantly did with the MSF grids, and precisely for the reason you mention ("technocratic"!!). But why anyone would call the Melda grids "technocratic" compared to the Bitwig ones makes me wonder if we're speaking the same language!

From my no-math/no-programming perspective, just this list of port types in the Bitwig grid:

Logic
Phase
Pitch
Untyped Signal
Secondary Untyped Signal

…is totally baffling, with only the words Pitch and Signal having any instant familiarity or meaning to me in the context of patching together audio modules, for which MY experience is little better than that of a guitarist with a bunch of FX pedals. I've even spent years working in Reaktor, with over 50 User Library posts, but even these go scarcely beyond the pedal-board/audio-signal-flow level of patching. Which is a totally sufficient level of tech to have a ton of joy with Reaktor:)

For me the MSF grid modules (with a few exceptions, to be sure!) were a totally familiar, enticing territory replete with obvious implications for many things I'd immediately want to try out. And which I was able to do immediately, with no further clue about the Melda Way, just popping stuff into the grid and getting interesting results right away. Granted, it DID take me a further 3 month of struggle to actually get on top of the Melda Way with building in MSF (this was in the beta days before it was for sale and video demos were scarce).

I'm STILL wondering WTF I could ever do in the Bitwig Grid without following many highly detailed step-by-step guides and learning to decipher a host of strange words and concepts. It looks to me like a scaled down but no more obvious version of Max. Which I see from other posts from you in other threads you've got long experience with:)

[Tj Shredder]

Maybe I feel so familiar with the Grid, as my main Background is Max since more than 25 years... Max moved me away from lines of code programming... Max is so much easier than Reaktor, but I must admit, some Reaktor ensembles just sound amazing...
I consider the Grid being in its infancy, a lot of basic stuff is still missing...
Just some examples of patches I made within a much shorter time as I would have needed in Max/MSP
I rebuilt all DX7 algorithms,
I made a VOSIM oscillator,
I read a paper about tropical additive synthesis and had it implemented in about half an hour...
MSF would not even give me the idea to do such projects. Try to do a VOSIM oscillator in MSF, I doubt you get there at all... But feel free to prove me wrong... (Don't forget we want to discourage the op...; - )

[David]

Maybe I feel so familiar with the Grid, as my main Background is Max since more than 25 years... Max moved me away from lines of code programming... Max is so much easier than Reaktor, but I must admit, some Reaktor ensembles just sound amazing...
I consider the Grid being in its infancy, a lot of basic stuff is still missing...
Just some examples of patches I made within a much shorter time as I would have needed in Max/MSP
I rebuilt all DX7 algorithms,
I made a VOSIM oscillator,
I read a paper about tropical additive synthesis and had it implemented in about half an hour...
MSF would not even give me the idea to do such projects. Try to do a VOSIM oscillator in MSF, I doubt you get there at all... But feel free to prove me wrong... (Don't forget we want to discourage the op...; - )

Haha!—No WAY I could ever prove you wrong! I can't even understand what you're talking about:)
Nor do I need to, to totally enjoy MSF—or Reaktor. Max, OTOH, well, I've bought a book, and am girding my loins…

But see, it IS all about experience; your reply proves that to me. You go right for it with the Bitwig Grid, but WHY would I ever want to rebuild DX7 algorithms? I've got FM8 AND Dexed. AND the Arturia one. Which WAY more than serve MY purposes. What I love about MSF (and Reaktor) is precisely that they can work really well when conceived of as little more than big collections of stomp boxes. And for me MSF ups ante considerably by offering a patching grid that's just little bit more complex than a Mackie mixer, and not a whole lot more, unlike the BW Grid. Plus it has a gui-builder that's WAY more powerful and not a lot more difficult to use, IMO, than Reaktor's.

And I don't want to discourage the op; I think he'd be a fool to NOT get MSF:)

[Tj Shredder]

Rebuilding a DX7 immediately opens up areas neither FM8 nor Dexed could ever get close (Its in their commercial aim to first serve as emulations and then add just the obvious). As the basic Grid oscillators are more rich than the sines of any emulation, you open up new worlds. Starting it is more exploring the synthesis method, but it will lead you fast to unknown grounds. Its just extremely inspiring...
Btw. The Vosim project is discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=259&t=543362
Tropical Additive Synthesis here: viewtopic.php?f=259&t=543662

[dakkra]

Try to do a VOSIM oscillator in MSF, I doubt you get there at all

Bet.



Maybe not exact but it's damn close

Edit: For the record, I most wanted to do this just to see if I could emulate it in MSF. Not an attack on you. Just wanted to have some fun... and it's fun to poke the bear a little

I looked at your grid preset and yes this MSF emulation isn't near as exact. Of course if I spent more time with it I could probably get there. Point is, MSF is just as capable if you know how to use it.

[David]

Rebuilding a DX7 immediately opens up areas neither FM8 nor Dexed could ever get close (Its in their commercial aim to first serve as emulations and then add just the obvious). As the basic Grid oscillators are more rich than the sines of any emulation, you open up new worlds. Starting it is more exploring the synthesis method, but it will lead you fast to unknown grounds. Its just extremely inspiring...
Btw. The Vosim project is discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=259&t=543362
Tropical Additive Synthesis here: viewtopic.php?f=259&t=543662

Thanks for the links! Will check 'em out.

I didn't mean to imply that what you're doing and the level you're operating on, or what you expect from your tools isn't interesting to me, or for it's own sake, definitely not. And when I get around tackling BW and The Grid, which I inevitably will, I hope I can find your creations there!

I meant simply that I'm not myself thinking that way, so I just putter along down here with the stomp boxes, yet still able to serve my own imaginings and surprise myself, that's all. Just hoping to provide another perspective on how these tools can be used, and be useful.

[David]

Point is, MSF is just as capable if you know how to use it.

Too bad neither The Grid nor the grids do MIDI at all, but I bet The Grid will go there way before the MSF grids ever do. You CAN run MDrummer inside MSF, but you can't muck with the MIDI output in any way.

[Halonmusic]

Have You tried Fathom?

Although your post is in no way related to my question: I tried Fathom. I did not liked Fathom. Out of several reasons I do not want to discuss here ...

I did not like fathom either.