Synth recommendation for a newbie

[JO512]

I had Pigments and sold it (no regrets at all). I still don't get it about sound quality! I didn't like it at all. Very thin. I take Synthmaster One over it any day.

Hey EnGee!

Just now, I compared Pigments 2 side-by-side to Serum, Massive X, Synthmaster One, and Falcon 2. If you make sure all of them are putting out the same volume and you set each to a basic saw with no filter and listen, there is no appreciable difference! Add a basic LP filter, making sure you are using the basic filters with similar slope, similar volume at the filter stage, and differences are insignificant. I bet you couldn't pick out any of them by ear alone.

One thing is that by default, I've noticed, the Arturia synths tend to be set a little on the quiet side compared to some other synths. We all know that louder sounds better. To get a fair comparison, you need to normalize volume. Synthmaster One is the biggest offender here in setting things loud by default. And you need to make sure both synths are otherwise set up the same!

When I tested Synthmaster One, one thing immediately apparent is that that if you select the init preset, turn on filter 1 and open up the cutoff, the volume on the filter is very high! It is pushing the sound level up dramatically! Turn the filter on and off. Huge level difference! Pigments doesn't do this by default. The sound level with filter on and off is similar. If, however, you turn the volume on the filter all the way up, it sounds closer to Synthmaster One, but still not quite there. You have to nearly crank everything. Once you make sure the output levels are the same, the sound is the same. More volume makes things sound fatter and fuller and richer and more detailed. Plus, at high levels, you feel the bass more. The "thinness" you hear might just be because the sound is quieter. But levels are easy to change!

When plugin makers set their products to put out excessive levels by default, I think they are just cheating in the perception wars.

I used YouLean Loudness Meter 2 to compare the outputs of Pigments and Synthmaster One with the init patch, a simple saw, and a low pass filter opened up with no resonance. When playing a C3 note, Pigments 2 puts out -20.5 LUFS short term. Synthmaster One puts out -9.5 LUFS. This difference is HUGE and probably explains a lot about how people are perceiving things comparatively.

Many of Synthmaster One's presets actually are loud enough to push above 0dB and clip by default! What's up with that? I suspect they are doing this on purpose to make people think their synth sounds better than it actually does. Presets in Pigments are far quieter on average, being at more of a proper level, near -18dB. If you start building a song with all your instruments already clipping, you are going to have a distorted mess. A starting level of -18dB makes perfect sense.

The biggest differences otherwise are going to show up in the presets, as you are dealing with different sound designers with different tastes. And presets tend to be drenched in effects. But the raw engine? They are all very similar. So then it's really a matter of feature sets and interface design.

There is one issue with Pigments that might also explain some perceptions. When you sweep the filter using the cutoff knob onscreen and you have high resonance, the sweep you hear isn't perfectly smooth. It is a tad steppy. Mouse output is naturally steppy, as is a virtual knob. So many plugin makers add some software smoothing here. Arturia apparently doesn't. However, when you modulate the filter cutoff with an LFO or DAW automation curves or something, the sweeps are just as smooth as any other plugin, so unless you are performing live and sweeping your filters at high resonance with a mouse, this isn't likely to affect your final sound.


I gave Synthmaster One a good try. It's a decent basic synth. I wouldn't buy it for myself though. Rather limited. I liked ANA 2 better than this. At least it has a nice multi-breakpoint envelope with a configurable grid and good snapping and whatnot.

Pigments offers better usability with all its visualizations and much more features with more sound possibilities.

[claudedefaren]

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[JO512]

I was just loading random presets in Synthmaster One. The output level on one preset, "BAS Dear 3 UK", is at over +15dB with some notes! That's ridiculous!

[JO512]

To my ears, synthmaster one's SVF filter is one of the best I've ever heard,

Are you sure it isn't just the loudness of the filter by default that makes you feel this way? It is VERY LOUD! Turn up the resonance and it is clipping at over +3dB.

But that's not useful. For the most part a basic saw is a basic saw, you'll find the differences that matter in the other aspects I mentioned above.

Comparing saw to saw is of limited usefulness. Comparing a filtered saw is more useful, as filters differ more than basic oscillators.

You mentioned unison voices. I set Synthmaster One to the init preset and just turned up the unisons and there is no gain compensation at all! They just add up! Set it to ten and it hits nearly +9dB without even engaging the filter! Turn on the filter, open it up and you are at over +13dB!!! WTF? You have to turn it down to compensate! Turning up the number of unison voices in Serum doesn't increase the overall level very much. The level increases even less in Pigments. That's how it should be!

You don't want the level to increase like that with added unisons. If it does, you can't modulate it nicely! Actually, it looks like in Synthmaster, you can't modulate that setting at all! In Pigments and Serum you can. And Pigments has that cool chord mode with the unisons!

[claudedefaren]

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[JO512]

I just did a bunch of filter comparisons and frankly, all the filters sound great to my ears if everything is normalized level-wise. None of the plugins sounds obviously superior. And I love LP filters! I think my favorite sound is a slightly resonant LP filter sweeping over a single deep saw! That snappy, fat goodness! All these synths do it nicely!

Claudedefaren, did you try the SEM filter on Pigments set to 100% LP? Sounds pretty fat and full to me!

[JO512]

I see what you mean about the envelopes in Synthmaster One. It's hard to make fine adjustments with such small faders. But you can hold 'shift' to make finer adjustments.

[claudedefaren]

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[JO512]

I was just playing with Hive, and I'll say, first of all, that I am a fan of u-he products. I own Diva, Repro, Presswerk, Satin, ColourCopy, and Twangstrom, and have nearly pulled the trigger on Bazille. Hive has nice filters, as do all u-he synths. But I was just comparing side-by-side with Pigments after carefully normalizing the volumes with the aid of a VU meter, and honestly, they both sound great!

But Hive is pretty limited feature-wise. It's a solid synth, for sure. You can't really go wrong with u-he. But I just don't hear the superiority of the filters. And I'd rather have the features of Pigments, especially the addition of the granular sample engine and the many complex modulation options. I just discovered that envelopes have an option to change what triggers them to all sorts of things, even the grain trigger. Cool!

Where the differences between filters shows up is only with the highest resonance settings. There, the Hive filter goes into higher, more driven resonance than the multimode, SEM, or Matrix filters in Pigments. But the Mini filter in Pigments reaches similar levels and sounds very similar with the right settings. If Hive and Pigments are both set for maximum resonance and levels are normalized, if Hive is in "normal" synth engine mode, the Mini filter in Pigments needs just a touch of drive. Then they sound nearly indistinguishable. I set them to sweep one after the other using an automation curve in Reaper and one thing I noticed is that the response curves are mapped slightly differently, but not much.

Maybe I'll share an audio file with one after the other and see if you can tell which is which.

[JO512]

It seemed to me that the filter squeal in Hive has a bit more in the way of stereo separation than that of Pigments. I pulled up a lissajous scope and sure enough! There seems to be something like a slight delay on one side. I added a very slight delay to one side of the audio coming from Pigments and got a nearly identical result.

[Tannaliini]

I have been trying out kHs One.
I was very impressed after listening some demo videos of it... But even though I find it very tempting to use, the sounds are very much “same” one after other. At least the leads. They have this “metallic” feeling, and they all have the very similar “sound”. So it’s almost like playing the same preset over and over with some variations... This is just my experience after some testing.

But the Pigments! After listening couple of demo videos I was “yeah, good selection of sounds but maybe not for me...”. But I decided to try the demo. And after quick testing it seems to offer very rich selection of sounds! Liking what I’m hearing.

[e-crooner]

kHs One does not exactly sound warm, no.
Makes me wonder about the hearing of those who praised it on their site.

[JO512]

Here is an audio file with a filter sweep from Pigments on one side and Hive on the other. Guess which is which. I didn't get levels perfectly normalized, as you can see, as the one on the left is slightly louder, which is apparent in the waveform. Still, you should get my point.

https://soundcloud.com/user-260326741/f ... pbSVOd4XJU

[JO512]

I redid it. In the previous one, I uploaded an MP3 and Soundcloud seems to have introduced some artifacts in the conversion. This time I uploaded a WAV and tried to normalize the levels slightly better, though now the left seems slightly quieter. This version seems slightly better quality-wise anyway.

https://soundcloud.com/user-260326741/f ... LdjfzU1Lcu

So which is which? Anyone?

[EnGee]

@JO512:
Thanks for the explanation, but I already know the volume effects. Yes, indeed, Synthmaster One (and many other synths geared towards dance music mostly) has very hot presets (means clipping usually). I searched for a global volume, but couldn't find, so I was lowering the volume most of the times
Well, I had a long back and forth in the Pigments thread, and just few of us found it "not that great" (let's put it this way). Anyway, if I want to purchase from Arturia, I would take their digital emulations (they are great) and maybe the Mini emulation. SEM V is good but not stable with me, so I can't recommend it. The old version was great however.

@OP:
There are many great synths really, and it is good to read other's impressions and opinions. Not necessary it is what will you believe or think, so demo and take your own notes.
I took in consideration the cost currently. Synthmaster One for $39 is a great bargain. It is great to learn (although as mentioned, it is not perfect) but it has FM and other synthesis, so it is a good intro to other synthesis. It is a good intro to the synths, then you will know what to choose (hopefully as it is an everlasting task for everybody!).

My favourite subtractive synths however, are u-he emulations (Diva and RePro). They are keepers IMO. Also The Legend from SA is really great. Korg synths (Mono/Poly, Polysix, MS-20 and ARP Odyssey) are really great synths as well. But also, Sylenth1 is maybe the best simple synth out there, that geared originally to the dance crowd, but it can do also vintage sounds

There are other great synths from Tone2, Sugar Bytes ... etc, but for those endless lists, you maybe better start reading and demoing to get the whole idea. It is a long journey, be warned!