Ableton Live 4 versus Cubase

[quincy]

I was actually just ribbin ya. Joking around. went over yer head

I know you were just joking fella

Just felt the need to explain my harsh words. I really can't stand people looking down their noses at some of us because they think they're using "pro" software and we're using "toys".

[headquest]

If you want to loop and play around without being bothered by the old school instrumental model of recording then Live, Acid, Tracktion are probably your boys. There are more apps of both kinds and all of them cross over somewhat.

I take it you've not tried Tracktion then .

Tracktion is more like Sonar, Cubase and Logic. Although it has a simple-to-understand uncluttered interface and excellent workflow (unlike the other three!) it is still basically a linear approach to recording MIDI and Audio.

In fact, for looping, time-stretching and pitch-shifting, Tracktion totally sucks (although hopefully v.2 will change this!)

[headquest]

I bought Live 2 along with Cubase SX1 and Reason 2 when I purchased my laptop about 18 months ago... I was a long-term Cubase user (first used it in the Atari days), but Live and Reason were new to me. After the initial learning curce I got into Reason for its sounds (and I love ReDrum),...but I never got into Live 2 (it was part of a bundle, in case you're thinking I'm a mad millionaire )

I made the mistake then of thinking it was just a looping tool. And I didn't take time to look deeper. Also, Live has a very different working paradigm form Cubase (or Reason, for that matter, which I personally see as a linear program too, being as I treat it mostly as a sound module, although I know a lot of people use it more as a looping thing).

Soon after that I came to the end of my tether with Cubase, and after many years of on-off use I decided to ditch it once and for all. It was forever crashing, and is probably not a senseible programme to run on a laptop!

Enter Tracktion, which I instantly loved, and started using for both my own recording projects and my teaching work.

But more recently I got itchy feet again, partly because of personal support from Jules on the Tracktion forum, regular updates, and information about T2 seemed to almost entirely dry up on the forum (take a look at the Tracktion forum and you'll instantly see that it's almost died now - very little activity whatsoever ).

So I downloaded demos for Sonar 3 and FL Studio 4.x

Sonar 3 impressed me as being more suited to my needs and workflow than Cubase ever was. And yet I felt it all seemed a little flimsy, somehow. But I see there are a lot of people who love it to bits, so respect is due!

FL Studio was a little addictive, and I began to see workflow more in terms of creating patterns, mixing them (I love the FL mixer ) and arranging longer structures by organising verse/bridge/chorus as patterns. But it concerned me that I wasn't actually getting anything finished in FL Studio, or producing music that actually "sounded" as good as I wanted.

So with the advent of Live 4, time to look at it again....

In the meantime I had hear that film composers such as Hans Zimmer and Klaus "Pirates of the Caribbean" Badelt were using Live, and it occurred to me that the program is clearly useful for much more than just "dence" genres!

Also I heard a story about a project in which physically handicapped people were being taught how to trigger and put together music using Live 3 so as to realise some of their musical potential - which is simply inspiring.

And I was glad that I'd not yet plugged my credit card number into Image Line's website... because I think that Live 4 is basically a much better programme for doing the stuff I had started in FL Studio. Namely, pattern based composition, mixing and arranging tracks.

What I have come to love in Live 4 is the simplicity of putting finished music together. Unless you are trying to record a rock band that have already composed their song (in which case go back to Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc) then Live really is the program you want for sequencing. It has become my main host now. Cubase is uninstalled, and Tracktion is basically sitting dormant on my computer (I can't remember when I last opened it, although I will still use it for teaching as it's the easiest linear sequencer I know of).

Whether you now want to use Cubase or Live will depend on the extent to which you identify with the experiences of others who have shared on this thread. I hope that whichever you end up with you will be very happy and make great music

[SJ_Digriz]

I don't even know where to start replying, so I won't do quotes.

* I didn't say there was anything wrong with DJing or dance genre music. I honestly don't like it, but that doesn't matter to this conversation. You guys get too defensive. I don't like speed metal either, but there are some tremendous musicians doing it. I despise 99% of country music. Again, there are tremendous musicians doing it. So quit defending yourselves. What you and I do and don't like musically has nothing to do with this.

* Only one person replied that they were a traditionaly capable musician. So, I am left with my impression that it is mostly a tool for dance genre composition. Not exclusively, but primarily. NOTE I DIDN'T SAY THIS IS GOOD OR BAD.

* For tracking work the big name sequencers are way ahead in features.

* For those composers who are using tools like live, I can tell you from experience that they are not using them on the traditional parts of the score. They are learning to adapt current loop/sample based song themes into musical scores by industry requirement. In other words, they still write the score. They still linear track and sequence in a bigger named environment. But, pieces parts of the score are developed in applications like Live and inserted where required.

* Some of you are taking this way to personal.

And lastly, just for fun on the question of "Is a DJ a musician". In my world that would be no. For some of you the answer is yes. To quote Frank Z.

*Green Rosetta
"We're pretty good musicians, but nobody gives a f**k or will buy this record because there's good musicians on it"

I don't care if one way or the other what the lable is. But the word DJ is already the term of what that is.

[mauseoleum]

To quote Frank Z.

ach, himmel, yowza yowza .... *does humor belong in music?*

[Rabid]

... And thats what it is, its snobbery. ...

But you are coming across the same way, just from a different point of view. People can be just as snobbish about Live, and just as stupid about a linear sequencer. I’m sorry I struck a nerve, but calling me an idiot, snobbish, arrogant or stupid will not change how I feel. Live is very different from Sonar. I’ve used Live since vs. 2 and Sonar since Cakewalk 3. I see no reason to use just one when the strengths of each are very different. If you are happy mixing multiple audio tracks in Live and using it for mastering, fine. Sometimes I am happy using drag and drop of Acid loops and MIDI loops in Sonar. Sometimes I am not.

Maybe we are all idiots.

Robert

[quincy]

... And thats what it is, its snobbery. ...

But you are coming across the same way, just from a different point of view. People can be just as snobbish about Live, and just as stupid about a linear sequencer. I’m sorry I struck a nerve, but calling me an idiot, snobbish, arrogant or stupid will not change how I feel. Live is very different from Sonar. I’ve used Live since vs. 2 and Sonar since Cakewalk 3. I see no reason to use just one when the strengths of each are very different. If you are happy mixing multiple audio tracks in Live and using it for mastering, fine. Sometimes I am happy using drag and drop of Acid loops and MIDI loops in Sonar. Sometimes I am not.

Maybe we are all idiots.

Robert

I've never been a snob about software, my point has always remained the same, that nearly every host is capable of a wide range of tasks, and so why do people feel the need to pigeonhole them?

I stand my ground that Live is entirely capable of traditional linear recording and sequencing. Just because it has other stuff sat on top, doesn't mean you have to use it.

I'll admit i over-reacted though, so i'm sorry if i was a bit snappy and offensive.

Was in a bit of a mood before, and this was the first place i came so it poured out here

[Rabid]

... Unless you are trying to record a rock band that have already composed their song (in which case go back to Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc) ...

So you think Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc can only be used for rock and roll?

Go stand in the corner with people who say Live is only for stringing together loops of music recorded by someone else.

Robert

[mauseoleum]

So you think Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc can only be used for rock and roll?

A: NO. r'n'r and movies are reserved for nuendo.

[Rabid]

So you think Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc can only be used for rock and roll?

A: NO. r'n'r and movies are reserved for nuendo.

Where does that leavel Pro Tools? The product that REAL snobs use.

Robert

[quincy]

So you think Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc can only be used for rock and roll?

A: NO. r'n'r and movies are reserved for nuendo.

Where does that leavel Pro Tools? The product that REAL snobs use.

Robert

[headquest]

Some interesting points, SJ Digriz

* Only one person replied that they were a traditionaly capable musician. So, I am left with my impression that it is mostly a tool for dance genre composition. Not exclusively, but primarily. NOTE I DIDN'T SAY THIS IS GOOD OR BAD.

Well, I didn't want to make an issue of genre, perhaps because I try my hand at all sorts of things! (mostly badly, mind you )

Regarding being a "traditionally capable musician" though, I studied music at university before going on as a postgraduate to study at the Royal College of Music, London. For the last 15 years I have been a full-time professional musician and teacher, mostly in a fairly traditional settings (although this is changing at last!). So I guess I probably qualify for your criteria... and like I said I now prefer Live for linear as well as loop-based composition, because it's less cluttered and faster to use (for me).

Important point to note though... I don;t use ANY sequencer for tracking. In my mind a sequencer is there for sketching and composing. And when I started out using sequencers it was nack in the days of 16-step monophonic, so Live 4 is not such an alien concept.

* For tracking work the big name sequencers are way ahead in features.

As I am a "traditionally capable musician" most track based work equals audion recording.

For this I use Adobe Audition, which - for audio recording - is way more powerful than ANY of the big three sequencers.

[invitia]

If I were to record "real" musicians (by real I mean traditional rock groups or classical music or folk or any other type of music that is not based on loops or modern dance music, call it old fashion type of music) I would probably NOT use any of the tools mentioned above. I would use Protools, Soundscape or maybe Nuendo or maybe, maybe Cubase.



Why? Because I would mainly use the DAW for recording linear multi-input (12, 16, 24 or more simultaneous inputs) instruments and vocals in the same way as an old 2" 24-track analog recorder would be used. There would be little editing afterwards, mainly cleaning up the tracks, doing a few drop-ins etc. Then mixing down using a few high-end effects.

This type of music would be composed and arranged beforehand, in the old traditional way and mostly played and recorded live.

A tool like Live would probably work but it's main reason for existing is for live playing and composing of modern type of music. It's a creative tool, helping composing, playing with ideas, arranging etc, etc.

DJn, composing modern dance (I do this type of music myself), chillout, tarnce, house, rnb, crunk etc, etc comes from a totally different background. It's mainly loop based: create a bass loop, create a drumloop or two, create a hook and then put it all together using the latest trendy sounds and effects. For this Live really shines, I use it regularly and it's taking over more and more from Cubase that used to be my old tool, to the grade that I'm not sure that I'll upgrade to SX3.

There is no need for hostility between the different camps ("real" musicians vs "dance techs"). Both camps have things to learn from each other.



Peace

[headquest]

... Unless you are trying to record a rock band that have already composed their song (in which case go back to Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc) ...

So you think Cubase/Tracktion/Sonar/etc can only be used for rock and roll?

Go stand in the corner with people who say Live is only for stringing together loops of music recorded by someone else.

Robert

No I wasn't saying that... I was giving an example of a practial situation where Live4 might not be the best tool.

Having said that, I don't think that Cubase/Sonar/Logic would be the best tools either!

[mauseoleum]

The product that REAL snobs use.

Tsa - tsa - tsa. You haven't been to nuendo forums lately.

Just don't tell a nuendo user he's in fact using a Cubase LX