Upcoming Synapse OB-Xa: Obsession

[wagtunes]

I was around when MIDI was introduced and it is used for wildly, *wildly* different things now than what it was "intended" to be used for, so the argument that "MIDI is for x" doesn't fit with the last... 38? years of history. I put quotes around "intended" because it was intended to be flexible and extensible so that it could do near anything you wanted so that another standard wouldn't be needed for a while (which would help to establish MIDI as the single standard.) That worked, thank god.

Anyway, I'm chiming in because what EvilDragon is talking about... "creating entire patches" through MIDI is actually one of the very few things that it was designed to do. Roland and other members of the original MIDI consortium wanted external programmers, librarians, etc, to be able to completely control every aspect about a sound module through MIDI: everything from parameters, to presets to firmware updates and settings. So, the very thing EvilDragon is speaking about (that being total control of all aspects of a sound module, inclusive of configuration, options, and other parameters) is and has always been part of the MIDI specification and the "intentions" of its creators. But don't take my word for it, check it out. Also, why always so argumentative?

Well, if that was the intention, obviously it never caught on.

You have to wonder why.

[Teksonik]

The main purpose around here when Midi was first introduced was to allow you to control several synths from one keyboard.

With Polyphony limited back in the day and multi-timbrality in its infancy the ability to layer synths was one of the main selling points.

As least it was in the Music store I ended up working in. I remember well the early days of Midi....yea I'm that fecking old.

[tony10000]

The main purpose around here when Midi was first introduced was to allow you to control several synths from one keyboard.

With Polyphony limited back in the day and multi-timbrality in its infancy the ability to layer synths was one of the main selling points.

As least it was in the Music store I ended up working in. I remember well the early days of Midi....yea I'm that fecking old.

Sequencing and time syncing were also very important. I owned the Roland MSQ100 and MSQ700 as well as early drum machines from Yamaha, Korg and others. They wanted to do the same thing you could do with the Oberheim System.

[Teksonik]

Oh yes early Sequencers were the precursor to the DAWs of today. The Alesis MMT was a popular model later in the decade.

I still have my Roland R-5 Drum machine and a rack of synth modules all controlled through a 360 Systems Midi Patcher but they rarely ever get powered up these days. Kind of like a Horse and Buggy when you have a Ferrari in the garage.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Why need another protocol when just using host automation parameters works fine? I wouldn’t know the first thing about how to make use of that with a custom controller screen, but so many controllers do it like NI Kore and maschine, nektar panorama, novation SL controllers, akai has one as well. They all do it, so it must be possible with your own controller.

You run into the same problem as midi in that not all parameters can be automated. In Massive X for example, none of the parameters can be directly automated. You get the 16 macros and that is it.

That is the extreme, but many synths have parameters that are not visible to host automation.

Yes exactly, either way it depends on the software being properly designed for the protocol we want to use. A vst needs to expose it's parameters to the host and also use proper units and sensible ranges. Some people want all parameters to be midi learnable, whereas I couldn't care less about that, I want them to be automatable with proper label/values etc. I'm always asking devs to make their mod matrix source and targets to be automatable parameters for example. Many do, but many don't. Arturia never used to, now they do. They also didn't expose many buttons and now they expose nearly everything. I used to bug them about that 8 or 9 years ago. Sylenth1 and Tone2 are others that expose their mod matrix as automable parameters. U-he does with mod sources but oddly not with destinations. You'd think NI would understand the importance of exposed parameters, given that they use that method of hardware control in Komplete and Maschine but Massive X is the worst for that.

[BONES]

I was around when MIDI was introduced and it is used for wildly, *wildly* different things now than what it was "intended" to be used for, so the argument that "MIDI is for x" doesn't fit with the last... 38? years of history.

I think you'll find that what you think of as MIDI today is really something entirely different that goes on inside your computer. Hardware uses MIDI the same way it always has and that's what it is for - it is a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT Digital Interface, not a computer interface.

Personally, I don't expect MIDI to do anymore than what it did when I got my DX7.

I'd go even further - if you have access via a keyboard and mouse, the very things that computers are designed to work with and with which they work superbly, why would you want to dilute that experience? It just doesn't make sense.

[wagtunes]

I was around when MIDI was introduced and it is used for wildly, *wildly* different things now than what it was "intended" to be used for, so the argument that "MIDI is for x" doesn't fit with the last... 38? years of history.

I think you'll find that what you think of as MIDI today is really something entirely different that goes on inside your computer. Hardware uses MIDI the same way it always has and that's what it is for - it is a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT Digital Interface, not a computer interface.

Personally, I don't expect MIDI to do anymore than what it did when I got my DX7.

I'd go even further - if you have access via a keyboard and mouse, the very things that computers are designed to work with and with which they work superbly, why would you want to dilute that experience? It just doesn't make sense.

You're right. It doesn't make sense at all. I don't even use MIDI cables anymore because everything I need is in my DAW.

[Teksonik]

Personally, I don't expect MIDI to do anymore than what it did when I got my DX7.

When I bought my DX7 I had an Atari 520ST that had built in Midi ports. I quickly purchased a program called DX Droid (later changed to DX Android after George Lucas sued over the use of the word Droid) which was an Editor Librarian for the DX. It made programming the DX an order of magnitude easier than using it's tiny display and allowed you to store unlimited patches when a blank 80 patch ROM or RAM Cart could cost upwards of a hundred dollars in 1980's money.

There was another program called X-OR which was an editor librarian for almost any piece of hardware available at the time.

I don't know if such a program exists for Windows these days beyond Midi Quest which I'm not sure is still in development and I've always heard was buggy as a Florida swamp......

[wagtunes]

Personally, I don't expect MIDI to do anymore than what it did when I got my DX7.

When I bought my DX7 I had an Atari 520ST that had built in Midi ports. I quickly purchased a program called DX Droid (later changed to DX Android after George Lucas sued over the use of the word Droid) which was an Editor Librarian for the DX. It made programming the DX an order of magnitude easier than using it's tiny display and allowed you to store unlimited patches when a blank 80 patch ROM or RAM Cart could cost upwards of a hundred dollars in 1980's money.

There was another program called X-OR which was an editor librarian for almost any piece of hardware available at the time.

I don't know if such a program exists for Windows these days beyond Midi Quest which I'm not sure is still in development and I've always heard was buggy as a Florida swamp......

I wasn't aware of those things when I got my DX. The only thing I found out about, which I got, was E!

[Teksonik]

I wanted a Grey Matter Response E! expansion board too but never got one......

[EvilDragon]

That's bollocks. MIDI is ultimately used for control, not just performance. So it is entirely legitimate to use MIDI for creating patches on the fly with a hardware device rather than a mouse.

So you'd agree with the guy I was responding to who thinks you should be able to do anything you can do with a mouse via MIDI. You know, change the skin or resize it, all of that stuff?

It's like you didn't read what I said. I said "creating patches on the fly with a hardware device rather than a mouse". Nowhere did I mention changing skins or whatever (that of course does not make sense to change from an external hardware device). Just, all parameters that make the sound patch. Nothing UI related. That was really hard to figure out so you just have to resort to ad hominem, right? Expected nothing less from you.


MIDI was intended to be an extensible protocol, too. Which means, not one single purpose.

[EvilDragon]

Well, if that was the intention, obviously it never caught on.

It very well caught on, but in hardware world. Virtual instruments, whole different ballgame.

[carrieres]

did some people forget about sysex ?
so, no midi is not just about ControlChange from 0 to 127 !

[Kumi_27]

Not only sysex, also Non-Registered Parameter Number (NRPN)

[kelvyn]

Not only sysex, also Non-Registered Parameter Number (NRPN)

Oh God! The nightmare that was sysex and NRPN... don’t remind me of the massive mind farts some of us had dealing with that stuff! Glad those golden days have just melted into a nostalgic glow.