VST GUI Rant

[harper]

ive got to agree with jackle&hyde.

theres so many people who are quite simply living on a different planet.

ive lost count of how many times threads like this have been started here by self named graphic genius' , either slagging of interfaces in general or even offering their services as GUI designers which ive followed right up to the point where this graphics genius guy finally shows us all, after weeks of discussion, his creations.

thats where these threads get really funny. their work is always, after the big build up, a huge let down.

it always amazes me how many people live in a world quite removed from reality. what makes say a butcher with no idea how interface contracts are conducted who happens to 'own' a stolen copy of photoshop believe that he can create something thats superior to the work of professionals with years of experience. theres are however, obviously good and bad designers, as in every field.

if i wanted an extension on my house i would ask a builder and i wouldnt assume that 'i could do it better'

incredible.

[useruseruser]

Well said. You made my day.
.

[Lunch Money]

Maybe I can unmake it.

First off-- people need to learn to make their points without getting so damn defensive and abusive. It's irksome to know that when there's the potential for an interesting conversation, people have the need to make it more adversarial than it needs to be.

Second of all-- you're right, it's a matter of opinion. But then surprisingly, instead of leaving it at that, the implication is that if people don't share your opinion, they're idiots. So it's not really a simple matter of opinion, after all, is it?

And yes... I WOULD prefer more interfaces to be 2D... or, make them 3D but in a legible way. Mully's stuff is a good example of this-- very 3D but with a 2D sensibility and legibility.

Greg

[foosnark]

<i>For realtime performance, there are usually hardware controllers, capable to send MIDI messages in realtime. I don't think, that there is any live artist seriously using the mouse on stage...</i>

I haven't even been to a lot of shows lately, but Otto Von Schirach (currently touring with Skinny Puppy) goes on stage with a laptop on a folding table. Not even a mouse, just a touchpad or thumb stick or tiny trackball or whatever.

But that's beside the point really. I don't play live, and yet I still expect a decent, uncluttered, readable interface. Fighting your tools does not help workflow, it just makes you want to unplug it all and go strum a guitar or something instead.

[haydxn]

i think jackle&hyde is just being really argumentative and should largely be ignored - mostly he's putting words in mclilith's posts and taking the thread in odd directions. that and being somewhat crude in his manner.

i think mclilith's original point is a valid one; while it is nice to see smooth things on screen with graduated tones and soft edges, at the end of the day it is an interface and should as such be effective for that purpose. if graphical elements get in the way of the ease of operation of the device, then there are always improvements that could be made.

[jmh]

I guess I'm once again stepping in to defend J&H, not that he needs it but I feel like it...

And once again I do agree with him. Yeah, he's committing to the general ranting, but then again, he's the one who asked for concrete examples so the ranting wouldn't be just generalisations and speculations what "legible", "usable" etc. criteria mean to different people.

And yes, he's also a developer so he has experience on being on the opposite side to most of us - developing UIs, thinking about their functionality, usability, legibility and so on. Somehow this is being turned against him in a sense?

Also, he's made some good points regarding UI developement generally. Somehow these got ignored as well, as the focus seems to be on his attitude rather than what he's saying.

From what I read, in the beginning he wasn't even disagreeing with the original poster. Instead asking for concrete examples and not just generalisations. I for one would like to see names named, examples presented, suggestions for improvement and so on. Things won't progress if it's kept at this general level "some GUIs are bad, the graphics have stuff that doesn't need to be there"...

First off-- people need to learn to make their points without getting so damn defensive and abusive. It's irksome to know that when there's the potential for an interesting conversation, people have the need to make it more adversarial than it needs to be.

Amen, brother. Hopefully this thread continues this way

To give something of a boost to this thread... Name your favorite UIs, but not because of the looks. Also, name the UI you dislike the most, not because of the looks. And give us explanations why

I'll go ahead, even though this doesn't exactly fit what I'm asking... RGC Audio Z3t4+. UI wise it's a huge letdown. It fights against me on about every level of user-application interaction, the small size doesn't help, somewhat annoying layout makes it even more annoying. And the looks aren't that special either. (On the plus side... it's 'eye pleasing' visually and sound- and featurewise amongst the very best.) But it's so unusable to me that I could never work with it, hence I don't own it.

I chose this as a good example since it's one of those really loved synths around here, and mentioned almost every time it comes to UIs. I still have no clue as to why though.

Regards,

JMH

[McLilith]

Got any specifics? 'cause I've never seen any that are so bad as to interfere with the proper function of the thing.

Since so many people have asked for specific examples, I decided to post a few. Before I get started, I want to say that I do like a lot of these plugins, but I simply wish the graphics had been handled differently. I also want to stress that these were picked out somewhat randomly, so don't think that these are the very worst designs. Some of these really aren't so bad, but they all help illustrate examples of certain types of legibility flaws.


For starters, how about the sfz sample player? (I'm thinking of the free one. I don't know if the commercial one looks the same or not.) I absolutely do love sfz, and I think Rene did a terrific job with this plugin--except the GUI is far too soft for my taste. Much of the lettering is a fairly low-contrast gray instead of a nice crisp black. The whole GUI is too low in contrast. Some of the lighter lettering is too close in tone to the surrounding area. The visual antialiasing in the GUI could also be done sharper, but the low contrast is my main issue with this particular plugin.


Unfortunately, contrast is also a problem with the z3ta+ demo I have on my system. None of the text is in black or white, but a low contrast shade of gray or pastel blue. The small "pushbuttons" are also hard to read when engaged, because the "glow" from the indicator light obscures the legend of its associated control. The indicator light also takes up too much of the button's realestate, which would be better served by filling that space with a larger font for the legend. Either use a smaller "led" or better still, let either the background color or font color change when the button is engaged. This would allow larger fonts without losing the visual indicator. This plugin also has "uneven lighting" on what are presumably emulations of backlit LCD panels. I find this uneven background "lighting" somewhat distracting. I think it would have looked much better with a solid color background, or perhaps a much more subtle color variation, at least.


What about the original SampleTank FREE? Do you really consider that particular shade of red to be an easy-on-the eyes background? Also, do we really need the simulation of a vacuum-fluorescent display? (I'm referring to all those horizontal lines in that field of red, designed to resemble the background of a fluorescent display.) They just add to the visual tension, without offering anything worthwile. Most people agree that a bold red is relatively hard to focus on. If you look at the bottom of the GUI, you'll see some of the lettering is partially obscured by a fake shadow effect. Are they trying to make the control panel look rounded at the bottom? If so, why? The top doesn't have a similar rounded edge, and the bottom would have looked fine without one as well. Also, there are three icons on the right edge of the GUI that are a dark gray on a black background. Who's idea was this? It's too difficult to read those icons.


SampleTank 2 is a big improvement. The red background is more muted, and much easier on the eyes. Those horizontal background stripes are also removed from the field of red. The "rounded bottom" is gone, and none of the lettering is "falling off" the edge of the GUI. However, there are still a few areas that could use improvement. The shaded boxes in the red display make the lettering in those areas hard to read. It would have been better to draw the boxes without the internal shading, or perhaps make the shading darker and switch the font to a light tone for better contrast.


Albino is fairly well executed, but there is a lot of low-contrast gray-on-gray lettering which could be improved upon. There is also the questionable use of bold red letters for parameter value displays. Remember, there are colors that the human eye can focus on much more easily than a bright, bold red. They have also inserted some "fake glare" o n the corners of the parameter "windows". Sometimes this fake glare intrudes on the area occupied by the red font. I think this is sloppy to let the glare intrude upon the data in this way, but at least it doesn't cover a vast amount of the parameter display window. The Albino logo also has a distracting "halo" around the lettering, and resembles the effect of oversharpening text in a graphics editor. (I don't know if this is the actual reason for the halo, but that's what it resembles.)


Albino 2 is an improvement. They switched to a much friendlier wine red color, instead of the bright, bold red formerly used. There is also more contrast in the panel lettering, and not near as much problem with the gray-on-gray lettering of the original version.


Not all uses of red are hard on the eyes. Zero Vector does much better with bold red than Albino. This is largely because they use a somewhat darker, more muted red in several areas of the GUI (less eye strain with the muted red.) They also outline their red panel outlines with black edges. This gives a distinct edge to the red lines. You'll also notice that their "lcd" displays have no glare or uneven lighting effects, and they look fine without these effects.


VirSyn Cube uses a fairly low-constrast control panel, which is lighter on the left side than the right. This was probably done to simulate "real world" lighting and try to make the GUI look a little more "3D", but it also causes problems with the lettering on the left side of the GUI, because there is not enough contrast between that lettering and the background. I think you'll agree that the lettering on the right side of the GUI is much easier to read. Why not make the whole GUI easy to read? Also, we have drop shadows at the tops of some parameters that extend downward a bit too far, and they partially obscure the parameter fonts. This is a little sloppy. However, my main issue with Cube would be the contrast issues with the gray panel.


I don't have SonicSynth 2 installed on this system (not even the demo), but I'm looking at a full-size screen shot of the product, as reproduced in JPEG format. Since this is a JPEG, I can't criticize the blurry fonts too much, as this might be the fault of the JPEG compression, but I do wonder if the fonts in the actual GUI look as blurry as this JPEG. Anyway, there are still some problems here that can't be accounted for by blaming it on JPEG compression. Look at the rotary controls. Notice how the lettering is much easier to read in some places than others. Some legends have good contrast, and others have poor contrast. This stems from the designer's desire to give the GUI a shaded "3D" look. At the very least, all the rotary control fonts should have been rendered as absolute black, so the lettering in the shaded areas would have better contrast. I also have to question the lack of contrast in the blue LCD display. Why don't we have blacker fonts, instead of what appears to be a dark gray? This LCD also has a lot of variation in the blue background color, which I suppose looks cute in a way, but it impairs contrast and legibility, while offering nothing substantial in return. I also have to mention that the tonal range of this GUI is too flat.


EVE is a nice synth, and I really like the fellows that created it. (I also helped beta test this one.) However, the GUI could be made more legible. There is a lot of glare that extends across the actual parameter values, in an attempt to simulate a glass window. It's a cute 3D effect, as long as you don't want to read what's in the window. It would have been much better to only have the glare at the very edges or corners of those windows--not spread across the face of the window and obscuring the text. The large vacuum-fluorescent display (VFD) where the EVE logo is displayed should have a darker background. The same goes for the smaller VFD display in the master controls section. I realize those orange ractangles are to simulate the look of a real VFD, but they are a distraction that should have been minimized in brightness. In the real world, those background rectangles would be considered flaws, and manufacturers of real VFD products would like very much to eliminate them entirely, if they could. Lastly, the knobs aren't really as sharp as they should be. In fact, the whole GUI could be sharpened noticeably.


USB Charlie has a fairly cute GUI. The parameter readouts have a tasteful amount of specular highlighting and drop shadow effects applied to them, and they don't interfere with the legibility of the data being displayed. For the most part, the color scheme is easy on the eyes. However, there are deep shadows rendered across the face of the GUI, making some of the legends harder to read. There is also some overly low-contrast legends in places that shouldn't be affected by the shadows, and are apparently caused by the desire to make the control panel looked "aged" and worn. It's a cute idea, but they just went too far with this idea, and have impaired the legibility of many of the control legends.


How about some VST effects, you might ask?


Well, how about the CM Vocoder? Do you really think the gray-on-gray lettering scheme is easy on the eyes? They also have some problems with overly-fuzzy text antialiasing. Sure I can read it, but it could and should be much sharper than it is.


What about the Kjaerhus Audio "Classic Series"? Do we really need the horizontal pin stripes on the panel background? They add unneeded tension to the edges of the control legends, possibly because the size of the stripes is so close to the width of the lines used to draw the fonts. If the fonts or background stripes were scaled differently, maybe this would work better. One option would be to interrupt the striped background in the area of the control legends, and have those areas colored solid, using possibly the same color as the stripe.


Paris VST EQ v1.1 -- Sorry, but no one can convince me that the raised lettering on the brushed metal panel isn't overly blury. Also, the lighted pushbuttons are too hard to read when lit, because of very poor contrast. The knobs themselves are a bit soft, but the lettering is a much more important issue.


Voxengo Pristine Space -- I like the basic color scheme, and this is a fairly good design, but the lettering of the control panel legend is hard on the eyes. The letters are supposedly black, but have a bright edge around them that is distracting. Perhaps Alex was trying for that "stamped metal" look, which has some distortion of the sheet metal around the lettering. Whatever the intention, the end result is lettering that is harder to read than it should be. I know that this developer can make a very legible GUI, just take a look at Curve EQ for an example. Pristine Space comes close, but is flawed by those "stamped metal" legends.


GreaseTube -- This one lacks contrast in many areas of the GUI. For example, the scale legends (ie, 0%, 100%, -6dB, 24dB, etc) are too dark and blend into their background too much. The right half of the GUI shows what appears to be a tube, just for looks. I have no problem with that idea, but the image of the tube is rather fuzzy. This is purely cosmetic and isn't a functional problem, but it's a little decorative flourish could have been executed better. The slider underneath the tube is in so much shadow, that it's getting to the point of being hard to see properly. The "lighting" on the GUI should have been much more even.


SilverSpike - Ruby Tube -- Oddly enough, the only legibility problem with this GUI is reading the "Ruby Tube" logo. Although purely a cosmetic issue, I would think the developer would like to have a crisper looking logo. The rest of the GUI looks great, and GreaseTube could learn something from the clarity of this GUI. SilverSpike also produced "RoomMachine 844" which has a very legible GUI, including the logos.


Prosoniq NorthPole -- The parameter values are easy to read when highlighted, but are otherwise too low in contrast, since the lettering is black on a dark gray background.


Okay, that should be enough examples for now. I doubt that I'll make a dent in the mind of jackle&hyde, but perhaps some of you will at least understand the nature of the legibility flaws I'm talking about. Also, I only pointed out what I think are the more easily understood issues. A lot of GUIs could benefit from an overall sharpening, but this is a bit harder for most people to imagine the result of. For those people that complain that sharpening routines in graphic editing programs tend to add unwanted bright halos around dark text, there are ways to avoid this--if you know what you are doing.


take care,
McLilith

[Warmonger]

Don't take this as an attack, because I agree with you on almost every example (except the Classic Series crit, since I never even noticed the stripes until you mentioned them), but what would be an example of a good, or even great, GUI?

[McLilith]

For realtime performance, there are usually hardware controllers, capable to send MIDI messages in realtime. I don't think, that there is any live artist seriously using the mouse on stage...

Yes, but VST plugins get used in other environments where reading the GUI is definitely important. Just because some people might not need the GUI when playing live, doesn't mean that we should forget the other users that rely more on the GUI.

Also, your logic would be a good reason to not have these phony 3D GUIs with all their intentional artifacts like window glare, because you seem to be saying that people don't look at them anyway. Well, if they're not looking at them, why go to all the trouble to add the ill-conceived 3D special effects in the first place? Doing crisp 2D graphics is certainly easier, and if no one is looking anyway, why put in the extra effort for 3D?


take care,
McLilith

[LBN]

Why the hell do almost all the "realistic looking" GUIs look more diffuse and blurry than a 70's centerfold shot by Bob Guccione?

More VSTs need blurry vaginas.

[McLilith]

[McLilith]

Don't take this as an attack, because I agree with you on almost every example (except the Classic Series crit, since I never even noticed the stripes until you mentioned them), but what would be an example of a good, or even great, GUI?

As for the Classic Series, I agree that this is a minor issue. However, I do think the lettering would look a bit easier on the eyes if the stripes were kept away from the lettering, by placing the control legends on panels of solid color.

As for examples of nicer GUIs, I did point out some examples of GUIs that had improved with a new revision, and I pointed out the way that Zero Vector made better use of bold reds than the original version of Albino did. The effects GUIs also tend to be better more often than the synth GUIs, because the effects GUIs usually have far fewer controls to deal with. It's often much easier to use larger fonts, for one thing. If you want to see a nice FX GUI, take a look at Voxengo's Curve EQ GUI. That's certainly easy on the eyes.

I don't have time at the moment, to compile a list of the better looking GUIs, but I might do that later, if there's interest.


take care,
McLilith

[ianweb123]

I don't have time at the moment, to compile a list of the better looking GUIs, but I might do that later, if there's interest.

I always find opinions on GUIs interesting, and it was refreshing for a poster to come up with genuine examples for us to assess.. Thanks for this post McLilith

[jmh]

McLilith Good post, finally to the point I for one am anxious to see you mention some GUIs you consider nice. These kind of posts are what good threads are about

Following your example, I think I'm going to spend some time on the weekend and make a short list of good and "bad" interfaces with commentary on them. Hopefully we'll accomplish something

And don't worry about J&H, as rude as he might appear, he's a sharp guy with lots of opinions backed up by experience and research

Regards,

JMH

[McLilith]

it always amazes me how many people live in a world quite removed from reality. what makes say a butcher with no idea how interface contracts are conducted who happens to 'own' a stolen copy of photoshop believe that he can create something thats superior to the work of professionals with years of experience. theres are however, obviously good and bad designers, as in every field.

I think you owe me an apology, not only for insinuating that I don't know what I'm talking about, but for going so far as to raise the notion of using a stolen copy of Photoshop!!!

To be precise, my copy of Photoshop is Photoshop 5.0 LE. I most certainly did pay for it, and it is not stolen or cracked in any way. I also own a copy of Photoshop Elements 2.0. Let me state for the record, that I do not use any stolen version of Photoshop whatsoever. Before you try to nag me for not owning the latest full version of Photoshop, let me remind you that owning the latest full version of Photoshop (or any other particular program) is not a prerequisite for being able to properly edit graphics.

There was absolutely no reason to mention the hypothetical example of a butcher (a word with definite negative connotations of its own, often used to refer to someone who is clumsy or sloppy in the execution of their work) who uses a stolen copy of Photoshop, unless you were trying to smear my reputation by implied association. I don't appreciate that, and I expect better from you in the future.

if i wanted an extension on my house i would ask a builder and i wouldnt assume that 'i could do it better'

incredible.

If you had house building skills of your own, and then saw the finished work of some sloppy "professional builders"--you might well have a different opinion!


later,
McLilith